Is Epic V10 outdated ?

" Yes the hulls are efficient and stable on flat water but surfski is a boat that has to find a balance between performance and ability to deal with all sorts of weather conditions."

Interesting that this particular point was levelled as a criticism of Stellar. To many this seems to be the USP of Stellar, making boats that combine speed with a level of stability in the rough to enable midpackers to cope with weather conditions they otherwise would not.

Paul600 wrote: Interesting that this particular point was levelled as a criticism of Stellar. To many this seems to be the USP of Stellar, making boats that combine speed with a level of stability in the rough to enable midpackers to cope with weather conditions they otherwise would not.

I agree that the boats are stable but there is nothing extraordinary about their stability. If you compare the same class boats there is very little stability improvement in Staller boats. Most of the comparisons i have seen is when someone paddled V12 for example and they went for some model of staller and they said it was much better. Stellar has no equivalent of V12 and stability comparison as not objective its like comparing bananas to apples. The other thing is that Staller fans are usually mid packers who were lured in with talk in the forums and no much knowledge about paddling (I will add here, with very few exceptions and those exceptions are either staller re-salers or sponsored paddlers) in that way it is easy to persuade them that you see staller is much faster than V12 because you are moving faster in it...this is nonsense. In fact Epic Kayaks has the most stable surfski on the market with the V8 and V6 designs and after the implementation everyone followed suite including staller but the only problem is that they didn't sell any because they got he design wrong. So to sum it up, yes they can make boats but you have to understand the difference between buying a boat form someone who lives surfski day in a day out and someone who seats in front of a desk thinking how to grab some market share. Where do you think the innovation will come from? From seating in front of the desk? I don't think so keep paddling my friend! B

cdo wrote: No idea if Stellar copied Epic but even if the case I personally see this as a bad reflection on Epic. I have owned new Epics and Stellars and if Stellar is a copy then it just shows how much Epic got it wrong! Finish is about the same with both brands but from my experiences Stellar are better built, mostly better engineered/designed and paddle much better than the Epics I had (V10 and V12).

The only thing i find fascinating is that in order to sell boats Staller reps always try to relate to Epic Kayaks in some way. It is like looking for identity and leeching from Epic Kayaks reputation instead of finding their own face. Since I started working for Epic our office in Europe has sold more than 3000 boats and 5000 paddles and not once did we have to produce a sales pitch referring to another brand. The same is valid about starting any posts online related or referring/ demeaning any other brand. It seems though that Staller's only sales tool is slacking off the same brands they copy ideas form all the time.

I still struggle to find what is so great about Staller? where is the better engineering and designing really? From what I have seen I can list Staller engineering advantages in couple of lines:

1. Rubber cap for their venturi - the only innovation I would give to Staller because there were others making plastic caps and Staller made one in rubber.
2. Center rail at foot braces - this has been done very long ago by a South African brand and if it was worth doing others would have done it too. Center rail has no benefit other than the subjective "feeling" of rigidity. Other companies decided that is more important not to increase weight and make complicated design in the cockpit. Many people also don't like having a rail chafing their heels.
3. bullet for the venturi - copied form some other brand from South Africa.
4. nice stickers maybe?

Other than that I have seen no innovation of any kind nor good engineering. I may be wrong though. I want to make clear that I am not fighting against the brand but when I read these posts it gets to me that empty statements supported with no facts float around misleading people who look for correct information.

Staller designer is a nice guy who has plenty of experience designing rowing shells. He has the engineering background but no experience or any knowledge in surfski. He hasn't even paddled one ever. No one can persuade me that all of a sudden a guy who knows nothing about the ocean has all of a sudden come up with the most revolutionary ocean craft designs. More stability you will say but again comparing bananas to apples doesn't do it. Compare Staller equivalent of V10 Sport and Staller equivalent to V8 and then tell me if there is any improvement in stability besides all other qualities of the performance. Most scientific comparisons i have seen so far regarding Staller is that someone paddled faster than his buddy in a V12...ok but who is the buddy and should he be paddling V12 or should he be paddling V8 or V10 Sport.

Regards

First, Thanks to Boyan and Wesley for including their relation and position in Epic and Stellar, respectively. It makes it so much easier to relate to their replies.

Unfortunately, it seem like the Epic dudes are somewhat in disagreement wrt Stellar being a copycat or not. Boyan says: No, but the Epic owner´s brother (Greg Barton´s borther?), Wally says: Yes. What is it?

Wally, if you have facts supporting that Stellar copied Epic, then be spesific of it and the measures you made.

Second:It is not true that all Stellar salespeople refers to Epic. Eg. I have never heard/read Wesley, Stellar Northeast, compare Stellar to Epic or talk down any other brand for that matter. On the contrary, I find him on the high end of the integrity scale.

Btw, I don´t own any Stellar or Epic skis, because I liked other brands better

There are things that will never be posted in the forums. I hope you understand in my view there was copying in the beginning but now it looks like they have their own stuff...i am actually not sure because I pay very little attention to this particular brand. We are way too busy working on our own projects. Keep Well Fredrik!
Boyan

Boyan - I'm going to have to take exception to some of your statements(Interestingly, this discussion has deviated from "is the V10 Outdated" to "Did Stellar copy Epic" to insinuations about the paddlers who paddle each type!).

All the boats are excellent. I have owned Think, Huki, Epic, and Stellar skis, and I liked them all. Each boat, however, has a different fit and a different feel, and will thus appeal to different paddlers. As for your comment that "Staller fans are usually mid packers who were lured in with talk in the forums and no much knowledge about paddling" - I think you're lacking a lot of info. A lot of very experienced paddlers are paddling Stellar boats (I've seen this at big water races in the Midwest and Eastern US, and at the USCA flat-water marathon races). The SE/SEL does have some extra secondary stability in comparison to the V10/V10L. It may not be earth-shattering, but it makes a difference to a mid-pack paddler when conditions get "interesting". And stability typically helps a paddler's speed. It really doesn't matter with elite paddlers. As Oscar said in his paddling clinic, he could probably stand up in all of the boats that were present, and I suspect guys like Dawid Mocke, Sean Rice, Oscar Chalupsky, Greg Barton, etc. could switch rides and still dominate. A lot of these guys appear to be sponsored and have been paddling a particular brand for a long time, so it's not surprising that an upstart company doesn't have a lot of elite paddlers using their products. At least not yet.

Stellar boats have some unique features that appeal to some of us: as I told Oscar when he asked why I was paddling a Stellar, one of the biggest reasons I went with Stellar was the larger footwell and the very solid 3-point foot plate. My feet were squished in the Epic footwell. It's very uncomfortable in warm weather with just a thin bootie; here in the Midwest, I couldn't fit into the boat at all in cold weather with my winter paddling footwear. The Epic foot plate also creaks and flexes in comparison, and as noted the extra stability of the Stellar with speed that's at least as good as the V10 sold me (I also like the stiffer feel of the Stellar decks/hulls in comparable layups). It's also nice that the same rudders are interchangeable between all the skis. I was a bit put off by the large foot well volume at first, but now I find it to be a great place for a hydration system. On the opposite side of the coin, I really like the Epic buckets; they're the best-fitting and most comfortable I've ever paddled. I also like the retractable V12 bailer, but the plug in the Stellars is helpful for keeping water out in cold conditions. It's still not as good as the retractable bailer, since it's easy to knock out the plug when putting your feet in or out of the boat.

This statement also lacks merit: "In fact Epic Kayaks has the most stable surfski on the market with the V8 and V6 designs and after the implementation everyone followed suite including staller but the only problem is that they didn't sell any because they got he design wrong." Think should really get the credit for starting the "stable surf ski" revolution with the Think Fit, which incorporated a surf ski cockpit into a sea kayak. I thought it was brilliant at the time (my wife bought a Think Fit for her first boat), and I still think it's a great idea. Epic took it a step farther with the V8, giving it a true surf ski layout and an awesome boat for less experienced paddlers. Interestingly, Epic opted to build this boat on the wider 18X Sport hull instead of the USCA optimized 18X hull. I'm not sure why it was done that way. At any rate, Stellar did go with the same idea with the S18S, but used a narrower hull to optimize the boat for USCA competition. At the current time, the S18S is proving to be the faster boat in USCA Sea Kayak competition (proving also that they know a bit about boat design...). Stellar also introduced true sea kayak hatches to this class of boat, which Epic has now brought to the V6. It looks to me like there's a bit of idea copying running both ways. As for sales, a dealer I know who sells both Epic and Stellar boats reported to me that Stellar "stable kayaks" have been outselling the Epics 8:1.

I like Epic kayaks, so I don't have any bone to pick; I just think you need to understand there are legitimate reasons why some paddlers are choosing to go with Stellar - they aren't incompetent or ignorant paddlers.

Thanks for this. But really...here is the empty statements:
1. a lot of experienced paddles use Staller. How many is a lot? Number please.
2. Larger foot well is better because it fits neoprene shoes. Better for how many people?
3. The first stable "surfski" came from Point 65. And it was shocking at 29 kg. How many were sold? 0 +1 maybe. Think fit is not a surfski suitable for downwind conditions and therefore not relevant.
4. V8 was designed to be a surfski - stable, agile and fun with simple design. We had a very large debate if we should install hatches or not and we decided to leave it for the V6. This decision was made a lot before Staller 18 version. No ideas have ever come from Staller to Epic. We do observe the market but this is not the one.
5. The only dealer that outsells Steller vs. Epic is the one that carries Epic brand with the only idea to lure customers and leech form our name. If someone sells 8:1 Staller that means they sale maybe 24 Staller boats for each 3 Epics. For 3 epics per year they will get no margin. Why do they want to even carry our brand if they make no money on it? For the name so they can push their own brand.
6. Epic opted for different specs because we wanted performance out of our surfski and not compliance with standards. We had a discussion here too.
7. How is the 18 Staller proved to be faster? What was the speed comparison test that proved that and how was it conducted?

I am very comfortable with the fact that some people will like another brand. I am just stressing that Staller has been pushed as an extraordinary stable revolutionary boat that is very popular and it isn't. That's all really.

I think the whole argument about stability from brand to brand is a tough comparison. Even with similar models between brands there are clearly subtle differences in rocker, hull shape etc. Even seat height makes a difference. I just fit a seat pad in my V10 Sport and I felt like I was paddling a V12 !

I imagine a difference of 1 c.m. in beam makes a difference.

It gets a bit silly to compare different skis. It is really all mental masturbation.

Sure, try different skis but realize they are all a bit different.

I think if a particular ski or brand absolutely sucks it will cease to exist !!

All the well known skis have their own merit. Paddle what works for you . Bashing other marques does little to improve the sport.

Just my opinion as a newbie.

I suspect we're looking at different demographics. You're probably looking at big off-shore races around the world; I'm looking at what I see in the Midwest & Eastern USA. With that in mind:

Boyan wrote: Thanks for this. But really...here is the empty statements:
1. a lot of experienced paddles use Staller. How many is a lot? Number please.

I have no ideas what total numbers are either way - and I wouldn't expect an upstart to have numbers equal to a time-honored company that has been supplying boats for years. You infered that no experienced paddlers run Stellar; I'm just saying that's not the case. I'm seeing Stellars being raced in increasing numbers in the places I race. Many of the paddlers are people I would describe as advanced mid-packers.

2. Larger foot well is better because it fits neoprene shoes. Better for how many people?

Does it matter how many? Even with bare feet the Epic footwell is tight for me, and you don't want to paddle with bare feet in most of the places I paddle. I just told you why some prefer the Stellar design (it's not simply a matter of ignorance, as was stated); not that it was ideal for everyone. As a side note, Oscar told me that Epic is widening the cockpits by a cm on each side. I'll look forward to trying one out when they're wider.

3. The first stable "surfski" came from Point 65. And it was shocking at 29 kg. How many were sold? 0 +1 maybe. Think fit is not a surfski suitable for downwind conditions and therefore not relevant.

Can't argue that, but I see skis being used for much more than downwind (it's hard to paddle a lot of downwind on inland lakes and rivers...)

...

5. The only dealer that outsells Steller vs. Epic is the one that carries Epic brand with the only idea to lure customers and leech form our name. If someone sells 8:1 Staller that means they sale maybe 24 Staller boats for each 3 Epics. For 3 epics per year they will get no margin. Why do they want to even carry our brand if they make no money on it? For the name so they can push their own brand.

Not true. This particular dealer likes Epic as well, often paddles/races Epic and sees Epic as one of the true pioneers and innovators of the sport. I think the reason is really the Stellar SR: it seems to hit a sweet spot of being more stable than the V10 Sport (and yes, I have the manufacturers statements on the 4" waterline widths if you need specifics), but faster than the V8 and close to the V10 Sport in speed. It's really a delightful boat to paddle. Newer paddlers and those coming from sea kayaks see it as a boat they can paddle now, but continue to grow with.

6. Epic opted for different specs because we wanted performance out of our surfski and not compliance with standards. We had a discussion here too.

What performance were you looking for? That's a vague word without specifics. If it was speed, it would seem logical to go with the 18X hull; for additional stability, the Sport hull makes sense. I suspect we're speaking different languages; I'm thinking flat-water racing. You may be looking at down-wind performance.

7. How is the 18 Staller proved to be faster? What was the speed comparison test that proved that and how was it conducted?

Race placement, and paddlers checking their GPS times with both boats. The Epic 18X and the Stellar S18S seem pretty comparable; much as with elite-level skis, the engine is more important than the brand. But the V8, being based on the wider Sport hull, seems to be a tad slower, as would be expected. This is for flat-water paddling. I have no idea how they compare in down-wind paddling.

I am very comfortable with the fact that some people will like another brand. I am just stressing that Staller has been pushed as an extraordinary stable revolutionary boat that is very popular and it isn't. That's all really.

I wouldn't say Stellar boats are revolutionary at all, but there are certainly some solid ideas incorporated into the boats. The popularity is growing as well (at least in the USA), considering how new the boats are to the market. But I don't think Epic is in any danger of going out of business (I would still love to get a V12 someday myself).

Boyan, problem with your browser dictionary? Seems like it's auto replacing Stellar....

Boyan wrote:
Stellar has no equivalent of V12 and stability comparison as not objective its like comparing bananas to apples.

So the Stellar SES hull is in a slower class than the V12? Which epic boat would you compare it to in hull efficiency?

Granted this probably depends on the weight of the paddler...

Jay from Florida wrote:

"It gets a bit silly to compare different skis. It is really all mental masturbation."

This is exactly why I put the chart together a few years ago to make the process much easier for novice and intermediate paddlers like you. I also produced Surfski Basics DVD with this intent in mind and then SurfskiRacing.com.

These are the reasons you(Jay) called me when you were beginning your search for a surfski a few months ago because of my site and expertise on skis or you knew I was the Stellar Rep.

I think it is UNFAIR for you not to let the readers know on this particular thread that I spent over hour with you on the phone back and forth with you asking me questions similiar to the ones you have posted on this forum. I also exchanged many emails with you as well. I also emailed Sean Smith of Fat Paddler.com to asked him about the Think Eze and the Stellar SR knowing he was about your size. I was trying to get you more information to ensure you got the right size ski since you are limited based on your weight and size.

I was familar with the Epic Sport, 18S, V8, SR but i needed more info on the Eze thinking that maybe an appropiate boat for you based on all the info you gave me. I told you that the V10 sport(older version) should fit or the V8 or the 18S and probably the SR. I also had never personally put a paddler your size in an SR so I wanted Seans input here as well. I was trying to give you all the options so you could make an informed decision.

Sean told me you had already spoken to him with many emails as well. I also called some dealers in Florida to see if they had Stellars in stock. I also informed you how KAS transport worked and how to order a boat. You also had some conversations or emails with Dave Thomas of Stellar trying to figure out if an SR would fit as I recall.

You ended up finding a used Epic V10sport and now you are an Epic Fan as you describe yourself. I am glad you found a ski that fits you and you are a satisfied surfskier but you failed to mention on this thread that the STELLAR representative(me) was helpful to you in your pursuit of the appropiate surfski regardless of brand based on the information you and I discussed.

I have had similar situations on this forum and others where I have taken my time to help paddlers like yourself that conveniently fail to mention this as they take sides in these discussions and discount the help they received.

Wesley Echols, SurfskiRacing.com and Stellar

Hi Wesley. Exactly what Jay said was:

"It gets a bit silly to compare different skis. It is really all mental masturbation ... All the well known skis have their own merit. Paddle what works for you . Bashing other marques does little to improve the sport."

I think that sounds pretty reasonable to most of us and is an attempt to tone down a conversation about Epic vs. Stellar that perhaps has gotten too heated.

Certainly the proposition can't be that everybody who has ever spoken to you has to thank you and otherwise pay homage each time they post on this forum? If so, perhaps retail sales is not your calling. In any event, to err on the side of caution, I would like to acknowledge and thank Tony and Jacqui King of Epic Kayaks Australia, Dean Gardiner and Yanda Nossiter of Ocean Paddler (Fenn Australia) and Stew O'Reagan of Think Australia.

Metro,
No homage needed, not my proposition. I have been in sales all my life; retails sales(college)included and for the last 20 years pharmaceutical sales so I have had many customers interactions with all types of customers. My interaction with Jay stood out for me in the context of this whole thread, no more, no less.

Wesley wrote:

"You ended up finding a used Epic V10sport and now you are an Epic Fan as you describe yourself. I am glad you found a ski that fits you and you are a satisfied surfskier but you failed to mention on this thread that the STELLAR representative(me) was helpful to you in your pursuit of the appropiate surfski regardless of brand based on the information you and I discussed. "

Wesley; Why are you getting all stressed out. Yes you did spend alot of time with me on the phone and email and i appreciate your help.

I did post this some time back:


"Never expected this to be such a tough choice! Explained in prior post I'm a fairly new paddler. Sea Kayak want a ski. 5ft 11" bout 260 pd size 12 feet 44 in waist.

I was between Stellar SR and older Epic V10 sport (red stripe on seam) with the wider seat.

Have had some nice email conversations with among others Wesley Echols. I was so ready to pull the trigger on the Stellar SR. I would have to order a boat and pray it fit me. No local boats to sit in much less paddle. I contacted Russell at my local Stellar dealer gave him my info he in turn contacted Dave at Stellar. Dave believes the S18s would be a better fit for me. SR may be too tight. However "Fat Paddler" fit an SR and he was at the time larger than I as i understand it. I don't want the S18S . To me it's a topless 18 foot sea kayak.

Now in the mix is the older V10 Sport. It is $1,000 more than the SR as it is the Ultra layup. Not local I'd have to have it shipped. Add a couple of hundred more.

Odd, I'm in Florida surrounded by water and cannot find a selection of skis to try.

Local dealer does have the Epic V8 which i will paddle tomorrow! I could be in a boat tomorrow afternoon, my own!! Have read good things but thinking V10Sport may satisfy me longer.

If i feel comfortable in the V8 do i go for the Epic? Heard great things about SR but now concerned about fit after hearing from Dave at Stellar.

Yes, i have heard Stellar is a better boat in terms of foot braces etc. Hey if epic was not up to par they would not still be around. i have no loyalty as to brand at this point.

Thanks.

Sorry for being so long winded"



Are you pissed because in the current thread I am not singing your praises as I did in the above referenced thread?
Yes you were helpful, in fact very helpful and i mentioned that. In a follow up post I mentioned that the reason i went Epic is i had an opportunity and i took it. Sweetwater had no Stellars and shipment was not due for a few weeks . I wanted to paddle ASAP.
So what is the issue.

I am an Epic fan. I DID NOT bash Stellar and quite the contrary suggested we not bash other skis, did i not ??
Would i buy a Stellar at this point? Absolutely assuming it was a good fit and I was ready for a second ski !

FOR THE RECORD:
1. Wesley spent time on the phone and email with me as did others inc. "Fat Paddler'
2. I did not buy a "used" V10 Sport. It was a new sport with the older style wide bucket.
3. The Stellar rep, one Wesley Echols was helpful in my search for an appropriate ski !
Honestly, why the attitude?
Why is it "unfair" to not let the others know we spent time on the phone?

O.K. Gold star for Wesley cause he helped me!!

Hey gold stars for everybody on the board that helped me.

Lighten up, Wesley. Life is short.

No hard feelings !!

Jay

For what it's worth:

Here is my post about my purchase which i posted on paddling.net. And as you can see Wesley I apologized to the "Stellar folks" but as i mentioned in the post "timing is everything"

Jay

An Epic experience
Posted by: drjay9051 on Aug-11-12 5:47 PM (EST) Category: Kayaks

-- Last Updated: Aug-11-12 5:49 PM EST --
So after a couple of months in a kayak I was intrigued by surf ski.

Have done lots of research and asked questions. I was down to either a Stellar (SR or S18S) or Epic (v8 or V10 Sport).

While waiting for Stellars to arrive here in Florida I had the opportunity to sit in a V10 Sport (on dry land).

Unfortunately the bucket/cockpit was too tight for my big hips. I contacted the Epic representative, Brian H. who was quite helpful. He located a V10 Sport with a wider bucket in S. Carolina at Epic facility. As he was driving up that way he picked up the ski for me. Had a dealer taken delivery I would have been charged at least a partial fee for shipping as delivery for one boat is not inexpensive.

This morning Brian trailered the boat to an Epic dealer, Bill Jackson's in the Tampa/St. Pete area. I met Brian as arranged at the nice lake behind Jackson's. I fully expected to get a minute or two of basics and told to "go for it". Either I sink or swim (literally). Not so. Brian spent over 2 hours with me giving personal instruction and paddling alongside. Started in the V6 than moved up to the V10 Sport after a 15 minute paddle. Yes, a bit unsteady, well very unsteady but with Brian's assistance I developed a degree of comfort in short order.

Long story short, I purchased the boat. A win/win for all involved.

Just wanted to share this as I always thought of a factory rep as one who works with the dealer to move product. He worked one on one with the consumer. Yes , Brian wanted to sell the boat but IMO he went above and beyond what I believe was required.

To the Stellar folks, sorry it just did not work out. As they say, timing is everything.

Accolades to Brian H., Epic and the folks at Jackson's.

BTW: If you are ever in the Tampa area Jackson's is well worth the stop. Tons of paddling gear, SUP , racks etc. Also fishing stuff, guns, scuba, camping etc.

Oh yes, indoor pool for rolling instruction etc. To top it all off free hot dogs!! To bad they were gone by the time I got out of the lake.

Cannot wait to hit the water tomorrow!!

Well I'm glad we all have the choice. Don't care about the politics of it all and there seems to be a certain amount of BS going around here in my opinion.

I for one started on an Epic, have a good relationship with the retailer, have bought a couple of boats off them and four wing paddles. They are a good retailer, friendly, and I get my other bits and pieces off them when I can. However the V10L did not fit me well due to its design, I did not get a test paddle, however it would have made little difference as the problems I had with it developed over time. No problems with the service, no problems with the quality of the ski other than the two point foot plate used to slip on me frequently and I had problems with the single foot plate strap after doing a beach start and trying to get strapped in on the move, sometimes capsizing off the race start while I mucked around with it.

Got to test paddle a Stellar SES, fit me well and for a few hundred less than I paid for my 15kg Epic V10L I was able to buy an 11kg kevlar ski. I had a small quality control issue and I was offered a full replacement. However the issue was easy to over come and I came to an agreement with the retailer and fixed the issue myself and was sent a cover for the ski as compensation. Great 3 point foot plate that doesn't slip on me and the double foot strap system over came my issues I had with the Epic single strap. Also the volume in the foot well is a great place to carry my water bladder. This is something I was looking for when I decided to move on from my SES which was a little advanced for me in some conditions even after 18 months of paddling, so I bought another Stellar, SEL, because I knew people that had owned them and I knew everything about it was going to work for me and I had faith in the brand and the back up. So while some people say the foot well is too big and the 3 point system adds weight, well it just doesn't add up for me, I'm getting more of what I like for less money over the Epic.
When I bought my SEL I paid the same as my SES 18 months earlier and I was given free delivery, was given a weed deflector, an extra 9" rudder, also a pair of Stellar slings for working on the ski etc. I'm over $2500.00 better off over two skis than if I had gone with Epic of a similar lay up which are locally available.
I couldn't be happier. I keep in regular contact with the out of town importer who occasionally calls me on the phone or emails me to see how things are going and expresses a desire to meet up for a paddle sometime.

Really I don't care if anyone thinks the Epic is superior for one reason or another or one company is more in the right than the other, we are all different and all like different things, I've found what I feel is the right ski for me and its a Stellar. If Epic were better priced and they had a ski that worked for me without the issues I had with them I would have no problem buying one, but they don't work for me so I'm glad Stellar is around.

"Don't care about the politics of it all and there seems to be a certain amount of BS going around here in my opinion".

But you do care about the politics Kayaker Greg otherwise why would you make mention of the price of Epics in every paragraph in your preaching post above when the whole sorry thread has been about Stellar copying boats. Not all of us can afford BMWs but that doesn't mean that Volkswagen's won't do the job. Sometimes our budget only stretches to second best.

Premium products go hand-in-hand with premium prices unfortunately and that is due in part to the vast amount of time, resource, money and talent that goes into designing and producing original superior designs. Epic is a premium brand and has built a global business and indeed this industry on the genius of Greg Barton and his dedicated team of talented individuals. Epic clearly invests profits back into R & D and their innovations lead this industry and inspire new designs and other manufacturers to come in with original designs which all helps to grow this Sport. However not all manufacturers are inspired - there will alway be opportunists in every industry but some are more opportunistic than others.

And here's where I agree with you Kayaker Greg on the BS that is going around here. Wesley might be a Stellar dealer and sees Stellar's winning in the US where he lives but I live in Australia and the Stellar brand here has been a long time trying to get traction Why? Because they turned up here back in 2009 at the Sydney Boat Show out of absolutely nowhere with a full range of skis that were exact copies of Epic and here ... for all you Stellar faithful out there ... were the names of the models:

The Club, Performer, Ultra, Elite and the kayak boats were the 18S and 16S.

I was at the Sydney Boat Show and saw them myself and I'm sure Epic Australia still have the brochures in their archives somewhere. Go and ask the Clubbs what the name of their first range of skis were Wesley - I challenge you.

Now, of course they changed the names pretty quickly and due to the flack in Australia - from all the other reputable brands who design their own boats including Fenn - changed the designs and have been doing so ever since. So those new to the market could be forgiven for wondering what Wally meant when he says Stellar copied Epic.

I ask anyone out there .... how do a couple of Aussie businessman who once imported rowing shells but had been out of the business for years, produce a full range of skis overnight ... and from the factory who had kept all the old Epic moulds and name them after Epics?

And I also would like the faithful out there to consider this ... why is there no Stellar V8 equivalent and why is there no Stellar V12 equivalent? I would suggest to you because Flying Eagle never had the moulds. I've read the history on this forum. Look back carefully guys and see Rob Mousley's excellent challenge to Stellar some years ago when they arrived on the market with a full range of Epic look-a-likes and created a storm on this forum.

Go for your life Stellar with your aliases on this forum - but I can say this because I don't work for Epic, don't sell Epic and don't have an axe to grind.

And I can assure you Wesley that I live on the East Coast of Australia and paddle in races in QLD, NSW & VIC and I NEVER see Stellar's winning nor hardly any Stellar's at any race.

But what I do see are Epic skis everywhere I look, so to Kayaker Greg and all the detractors on this tired and tarnished, tall poppy forum .... go figure ... if you think EPIC are not the best ski on the market and are too expensive. Thousands of Aussies can't be wrong.

Cheers
Neville N.

And getting back to the thread.....the Epic V10 is NOT outdated and still provides many paddlers with a great deal of fun especially when there is a big down wind.

Question answered - thread closed (I hope).

buy a fenn