The holy grail of surfski design - ultimately ...

Thanks Uffilation,
The good news is that everything will be very clear soon (before the week ends).
By the way today I managed to get to 3:09 min per 1 km and top speed 32 kph.
It was a lot better conditions as the wind had dropped significantly from the previous days.
Will catch up later!
Boyan

Boyan,
You say that another manufacturer clamed to have a 6m " planing hull". Do you mind telling me which manufacturer and model this is?

I ask because I think I know what boat you are talking about and I have very very serious reservations if it meets the definition of a planing hull ( which as you know has a very well defined definition).

But we could be thinking of different boats.

Thanks

That could be Revo. (Listen to TC Surfski interview with the designer)

I the spirit of lightening up - I would be surprised if statements are made with much worry about hydrodynamic definitions of "the definition of a planing hull".

It is easy to anticipate the Sandysans next message as he has "very serious reservations if it meets the definition of a planing hull ( which as you know has a very well defined definition)."

In this Thrump era: planing, slip and sliding down a wave (oh well maybe a swell by definition) are pretty much all the same.

Good work Boyan, ignore the bullying

I don't know Boyan - never met him in person. He does come across as serious, safety-oriented, and way more honest than most.

Call me crazy, but I trust he has re-invented the surfski. Should he then reveal all secrets now? Well, as much as I would love to find out 'how he did it', I believe he should protect himself - and his creation.

Boyan is talking about sharing it all by the end of the week... I'd wait until January 2018 - when the ski will come out.

All of this could be fantastic news for the surfski industry, for the sport, especially for a super stable ski. However, the number of people lacking ethics and fearless about copying crafts is alarming.

I say: tease at will (but shoot me an email and let me know how the heck you accomplished that) <smile>
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Wait, asking someone who makes fantastical claims for clarification is bullying now? How about freaking no?

And as much as it may distress you to learn, words have meaning. For boats there are several well established hull types, displacement and planing being two of the three major ones. Saying something is a planing hull has very specific connotations and it is not all the same as you suggest as you go down a wave. For example if I say my new surfski has a reverse bow it means something irrespective of whether it handles different or the same in the water. This is a description of geometry and to assert that " they are all the same" belies an impressive level of ignorance. Congratulations Mrs conway, up is down. Black is white.

If any non round hull can be described as planing then the word is being used in a way in which it was not intended. If you think that is okay then what are we to infer about the real meaning of "fastest" and "most stable"?

And to finish you don't know me from Adam so instead of you presuming what I will say next why don't you go pound sand instead? If you are unclear about the definition of this term, I'd be happy to explain it to you.

Boyan in a previous message agreed than fantastic claims should be met with skepticism. If his boat is as fast and as stable as he says, the likelihood that it was designed this way without him understanding the difference between hull types is exceedingly unlikely. You, not so much.

Thanks, you just confirmed my point

"Wait, asking someone who makes fantastical claims for clarification is bullying now?"

That I asked myself too. If you make great claims to have solved a problem that is at the core of the surfski sport, but then refuse to reveal how in order to stoke a hype, and play waiting games, you can't expect that everybody will be just happy about that and keep cheering you all along. Rather, you will encounter all sorts of reactions: enthusiasm, encouragement, curiosity, but also scepticism, criticism and, yes, also robust mocking. All these reactions are legitimate in my view. But in the infantilized facebook snowflake era we have entered, many people can't stand real discussion, criticism, scepticism any longer, expecting only smileys and likes and nothing else, regardless for what.

That Boyan wants to show his boat Friday is great news. He does not have to send around construction plans, of course; a photo or little vid will do (no manufacturer shows photos of the hull, curiously). But announcing a wonderboat now and then wait until January to reveal it as mentioned by Photofr would be highly unfair to both potential customers and competitors, as by that you practically stall sales and keep the entire community in uncertainty just for your ... yeah, what? Boyan is not going to do that! If his boat can live up to his promises, I hope that he manages to get key features patented, as he would deserve a fat and lasting bonus for such an accomplishment, in my view!

off topc: yeah powerpoint, facebook& Co. what have they done to us ... heading towards a world w/o b@lls ... what is the idea of debating? hey what's a debate?
I still think the powerpointification of thinking in corporations optened the door for bringing doom to all of us lol ...


BTW: Is planing a well defined technical term for all Folks who use it or isn't it rather a descriptive term for most by now? IMO it's clearly the latter in most languages. You have these discussions about definitions on planing/displacement on EVERY (western) kayak thread in the world, I guess, which for many bystanders by now are as boring as Trekkie nerd talk on how many episodes there were of the original Star Trek series. Yes some paddlers do know a lot about hull design and theory and want to have the terms used correctly, I can fully understand that, but one might consider that one does not have to study hydrodynamics to make a bottom flatter for planing ...

"even as a barely educated carpenter, it seems I have been making many planing hulls without knowing"

LOL!

I also think Sandysan's expectations regards the knowledge level necessary to design a decent hull are a bit high. As your pic shows

Some people are obviously quite bothered by having to wait a week to see this promised new surfski. I don't mind in the least. I am used to waiting 6-12 months for new surfski models to finally appear. Like Ludovic, I would have no problem waiting until january to see a new design revealed.

What I do have a problem with is the tone from some anonymous keyboard warriors that have veered, in their frustration, into the territory of personal attacks on Boyan. (I am also referring to other online sites here). I have met Boyan, and I would guess that if any of you had you would change your tone.

Boyan is about as nice a person as you could meet. He is a very clever guy with a great sense of humor. He has dedicated his life to figuring out how to most quickly improve the downwind skills of paddlers, especially beginners and intermediates. There is no other person in the world with elite downwind skills that I know of who is doing this. The elites on the racing circuit give clinics here and there, but they spend most of their time focused on their own fitness. Boyan is the opposite. He obsesses full time about how to better teach downwind paddling, and only occasionally has time to work on his own fitness. Also, since oscar introduced the V8, nobody has done more than Boyan to convince the world that beginner boats are tons of fun and actually quite fast downwind. When Ivan Lawler wanted surfski lessons from Boyan, he even made Ivan use a v8.

Boyan is a great person. He is a pillar of the sport. He is taking the sport in the right direction (making it more accessible to every one). Thank you Boyan.

A final quip here - it bothers me when people hiding behind made-up forum names attack real people who who participate with their real name. I use my real name here. Keeps me from saying things I would not want my name attached to.

If the anonymous thing was addressed to m go back and look what I asked. A unnamed boat with a planing hull was mentioned and I asked which boat it was. Ooooooh the horrors! How dare anyone ask for clarification? What a bunch of bullies! Asking simple questions of someone making fantastic claims! I mean the nerve of some people!

I retract my previous skepticism. I am now convinced not knopwing anything specific about the boats dimensions or geometry that it is clearly the best thing since sliced bread.

That better?

If the anonymous thing was addressed to m go back and look what I asked. A unnamed boat with a planing hull was mentioned and I asked which boat it was. Ooooooh the horrors! How dare anyone ask for clarification? What a bunch of bullies! Asking simple questions of someone making fantastic claims! I mean the nerve of some people!

I retract my previous skepticism. I am now convinced not knopwing anything specific about the boats dimensions or geometry that it is clearly the best thing since sliced bread.

That better?

If the anonymous thing was addressed to m go back and look what I asked. A unnamed boat with a planing hull was mentioned and I asked which boat it was. Ooooooh the horrors! How dare anyone ask for clarification? What a bunch of bullies! Asking simple questions of someone making fantastic claims! I mean the nerve of some people!

I retract my previous skepticism. I am now convinced not knopwing anything specific about the boats dimensions or geometry that it is clearly the best thing since sliced bread.

That better?

I must be missing something in this post. I see no one harassing, insulting, mocking, belittling anyone or ideas here. All I read is normal conversation amongst fellow paddlers. For those of you who don't like good ole male banter I suggest growing a spine.
For me, I find a new boat interesting and exciting. Sure I posted some humor (or at least an attempt at it) but it was in fun.
In the words of the famous statesman Rodney King, "Can't we all get along?"

Boyan Zlatarev wrote: Hi Impala,
I think that too many people sit in the wrong unstable boat chasing fictional improvements of speed while exposing themselves to the real danger of diverse ocean conditions. I think this is a topic that is worth speaking about.

Probably the most sensible paragraph ever written about ski paddling...

Got to admit as soon as I looked at the surfki600 site and saw Boyan gurning at the camera it was pretty obvious that the claims were meant in tongue-in-cheek way.

I hope the project is a success. The more options for people getting into the sport the better. Though I haven't spotted a price yet - hope it's not going to be a case of 'stable, fast, cheap - pick any two'

As for the foiling - it was never going to be likely. The situation with a SUP board (single point foil and standing rider able to alter fore-aft trim instantaneously) is never going to be an option for skis and with two foils you are always going to run into issues of the wavelength/steepness. I can see a foiling ski being completely dominant in a long smooth swell and a complete nightmare the rest of the time. And that's before you get into the complexities of transport, storage, maintenance and the expense both of the foils and extra structure needed to attach them to the boat.

Hi Sandysan,
I think that challenging information online is not just a good thing to do but it is our duty.

I am not sure who called who a bully but I have to say that on the topic of Surfski 600 some people decided to "challenge" the claims of the project by speaking negatively about the person behind the project.

I disagree with this approach as I have often learned from people who I personally dislike.

Good ideas are not reserved only for good people

About the topic of planing hull i think that the definition is not purely geometrical as it only implies the ability of the hull to "escape" its own wave created by displacing water by adding more power in propulsion (and move in direction upward out of the water).

I believe that none of the crafts showed in this tread are planing hulls because they will never plane on flat water simply by using increase in padddling force. All the short wave skis will continue to be trapped in their wave unless they get on another wave to surf.

This is exactly what will happen with surfski 600, if you only use man power for propulsion on flat water it will never plane. If you catch a wave with it it goes close to the surface and travels with speeds up to x3 the speed of the displacement wave it creates.

Thanks for this Zach
i truly appreciate it.

Hi Spacehopper

I tested the SUP foil in surfski and it didn't work. I used very slow and heavy surfski and that didn't help but the main thing is that, as you said, to control the planing of the foil you need to be able to control the angle of attack and sitting in the surfski there is a very limited ability to shift enough body weight rapidly enough to have any good control of the foil.

I plan to buy a set of Moth foils with automatic adjuster to tests them but still foil will probably never be mainstream.

My biggest discovery while testing foil was that like any equipment it could fail and if it does then you are kind of crippled if you want to paddle to safety. Not to mention the additional draft which makes some entry and exit points inaccessible.

"I tested the SUP foil in surfski and it didn't work. I used very slow and heavy surfski and that didn't help but the main thing is that, as you said, to control the planing of the foil you need to be able to control the angle of attack and sitting in the surfski."

Thanks for this information, Boyan! I am pretty sure you were not the first to try this on a ski (and find out .. image guys tinkering with old skis and finally dumping the result into the bin at night ). I mean, Rasmussen's foil kayak was tested a couple of years ago already. It was damn fast on short distances, but that was all ... Rasmussen himself in one of the videos clearly points out the limitations of foils for kayaks which almost rule out any other use aside of flatwater sprint. Even if we pump iron twice a week, we humans remain just weak beings compared to wind or motors.

Still, I am wondering whether additional fins could make sense ... one possibility could be horizontal fins aft to prevent the stern from squatting, but that would rather be something for flatwater and would hardly help a ski in waves. Another alternative would by a stabilizing fins under the center of the hull to improve directional stability and reduce broaching ... but now that your 600 is already unbroachable, that might not be needed

And I totall agree with spacehopper on your 'wisest paragraph written on surfski'!

I don't think that Rasmussen design approach was good for open water as it has a foil at the bow and it shouldn't be taken as the ultimate test of foil in kayaks.

I think that if the foil is designed with the correct lifting surface the power needed to take off will greatly reduced. This is proven by the fact that relatively slow SUP paddler can get the foil up and even slower surf board paddling with arms.

The only limitation I see is the pitch control and paddle length fluctuation and if this is resolved then foil can be really fun experience.