The holy grail of surfski design - ultimately ...

I understand your frustration Sandysan but my means to deliver the message to a wider audience is not limited at all to Surfski 600.

This is just one of the triggers used. Try to research me...it should be easy to see what i do and how i do it.

It seems this really got to you but you know what ... it is still a sunny day my friend

Boyan

Thanks again a thousand times for this thread and the info in it Boyan.

I'll use this thread as a reference to help steer paddlers into a stable boat. The more I learn about skis, (almost 5 years now) the more I realize how much I don't know.

I've always been a one boat person, but I'm getting an 8 pro to compliment my new 12. The 8 pro will be my go to boat for surfing waves, whale watching, etc. Also, after a tough day at work, I often want to paddle upwind/downwind to stretch out.

Kudos on the Surfski 600 idea Boyan, This sport needs a heck of a lot more of that in my humble opinion. A good coach brings a lot of pleasure to us average guys. We appreciate it greatly.

Uffilation wrote: a tribute to two smart people ... > a while back ...

www.surfski.info/forum/attachment/1785

Thanks for the shout out Uffilation. I honestly do not remember writing that prescient post, but then again the time I usually log on to SS.I is late at night after a few beers. Which also explains the unhinged tone of some of my posts...

I was fairly certain that this was going to be the first viable hydrofoil ski. I was wrong. That time will come though I hope. From what I can tell a surfski is no longer the fastest craft downwind - that honor goes to the foil SUP.

What I get from Boyan's ruse is this:

- any beginner ski is capable of going as fast as an elite ski if you are surfing properly in good downwind conditions. Boyan's videos and GPS files are indisputable proof of this. Personally I paddle 95% flatwater and 5% downwind, so I do not have the skills to surf properly all the time. I cheat a lot by using my fitness and my v12 G1's hullspeed to jump waves and correct for the surfing mistakes I have made. I would not be as fast on a V5,7,or 8 as on my v12 until my surfing skills improve. Ironically, what would improve my surfing skills the most is to paddle a slow wide hull as doing so would make it impossible to jump waves and I would be forced to learn to surf properly.

- I spend a lot of time trying to persuade beginners to buy beginner's boats, and Boyan's results with the v5 (even with the plastic version) really strengthens my case in these discussions. I fully believe that beginners will learn faster, be safer, and have more fun doing so if they start on a beginner boat.

- None of us can watch the way Boyan carves a tight radius turn down a wave on the v5 without smiling. It looks like so much fun. I have always toyed with the idea of having a stable ski as a second boat to lend out to beginners. Now I want one for myself to paddle.

@zach,
my take was that he refined the V5, then he played it so well lol

"at night after a few beers. Which also explains the unhinged tone of some of my posts..."
No problem, I post unhingedly (is that a word?) when I am sober ... after a few beers, many things start to make sense though ... to me that is.

Anyway, looking at some sites where S600 was discussed, it seems that if, only a handful flat water paddlers feel "deceived" but not really the DW crowd ...
I can not understand how the hell, after watching Boyan's "curtain lift" video on what is meant by surfski 600, anyone could feel deceived instead of getting a smile on the face. Imo, that is something only a therapy could reveal lol.

I could understand an initial frustration of flat water guys a bit though, as hunting a few % speed gain is all we flat water squirrels have because we have no DW paddling speeds like the ocean folks. Paddling DW performers which are pigs on flat water is no option for us. But again, if flat water guys feel deceived that there is no next super gear, this could also tell them something about themself and their approach towards life, if they let it happen ...

Yeah teasing a vapor ware boat that is faster and more stable is not in the least deceptive. It happens all the time.

Before the ruse was exposed a lot of people said those legendless graphs were deceptive, whether they are flatwatwer or dw's I don't know.

Isn't the idea to get more people into skis? Beleive it or not, DW runs are not the only way. There are some who want ( for exerxcise or other reasons) to practice and perfect their technique. To say it's okay to lie to these people because someone else like stable downwind runs is like flipping them off. To then imply that these people should just get over it because some else likes stable runs is silly.

I think putting some onus on the paddler and not relying on a boat to compensate makes better paddlers. And some people find this "fun".

I am tiring of this thread, especially when people start saying things like teasing a vaporware boat with incredible characteristics is not deceptive but somehow a window into the souls of all of those insecure flatwater paddlers. Sorry Dr. Phil, I'm not buying it.

Hi Sandysan
you are trying very hard to twist this to justify your anger.

Please quote me where i said that i'm addressing downwind paddlers?

I teach mainly seamanship and attitude and it comes in the form of making the right decisions for yourself in all conditions. All that is based on acquiring certain techniques, the most important of which is forward stroke paddling.

Most of my students have no immediate access to downwind and mainly practice in flat water. But here are some non deceptive numbers (flat water conditions):

1. Less than 10% of all surfski paddlers race. Presumingly mostly the faster paddlers do racing because there needs to be some basic skill level.

2. From those who race less than 30% can maintain speed upward of 11 kph over an hour paddle.

3. V10 Sport starts to dig into its displacement wave more seriously after about 11.5 - 11.8 kph

4. Anyone who is paddling a boat faster (translate less stable) than the average speed they can maintain get penalized with lack of stability and potentially all the negative consequences: potential injury, slower speed, bad technique and low motivation.

So from the quick number above only about the top 30% of the 10% that races should be paddling in V10, v12 etc (other brands respectively).

This is a total of 3.3% of the surfski population to whom the Surfski 600 should mean nothing.

There is a chance that you are a member of that 3.3% and there could be no benefit for you at all to sit in a more stable boat but if you belong to the 96.7% you will still be able to paddle better, faster and easier following the Surfski 600 advise.

This is how I see the numbers and who i'm approaching.

On top of that in order to grow the sport we need to consider that the next step of growth will not come from the top end of the surfski pyramid. This has already happened by people transitioning from flat water marathon, sprint and other type of paddling.

I will finish with this:

Let's figure out together where you are if you agree?

Please tell me:

1. What model surfski you use?
2. What is your race speed over one hour or top average speed for one hour more intense paddling?
3. If you have to rate your stability in your typical paddling condition using your boat how would you rate it from 1 to 10? 1 is "i feel i will swim any second" and 10 means "the thought about stability never crosses my
mind".

I can also offer you a complimentary stroke analisys so your time discussing this is not totally wasted.

How does this sound?

Best Regards
Boyan

@zach
"Personally I paddle 95% flatwater and 5% downwind, so I do not have the skills to surf properly all the time. I cheat a lot by using my fitness and my v12 G1's hullspeed to jump waves and correct for the surfing mistakes I have made. I would not be as fast on a V5,7,or 8 as on my v12 until my surfing skills improve."

Exactly my situation. For me, surfing only occurs with river barges (the more modern varieties do no longer make significant waves) or perhaps twice a year when I get the chance to visit the seaside. When I get to real surfing conditions, my major concern is to stay safe, as I have no clue about real surfing anyway.

But in this situation I would still not buy a V5, by no means, because it would not really help me. Let me explain: I do not have a K1 background, so my stability, according to the scale Boyan suggested, would be 4 perhaps. What I did two years ago to improve my stability was buying a Stellar SES and paddle it on the turbulent river where I live. That quite kicked me out of my comfort zone, and next time at sea in an intermediate ski I felt very safe. So there is a kind of passive security your boat delivers, and an active one you have to contribute yourself, and at my skill level and training opportunities, it is obvious for me to work on the latter (therefore I have regretted a lot already that I sold the SES one year ago, I should have kept it). I would never have used the SES for a DW race, but training with buddies at moderate conditions would have been an option, who knows.

Another aspect is versatility. Most of my races are on flat water, or at least not DW, so if I want to avoid having three or four boats, I would rather opt for one that has good flatwater speed and still lots of stability reserves. And this is what (in my view) manufacturers could still do better (remember the discussion I started about flattening the bottoms of intermediate skis). My dream is to have a stable 550 boat for rough DW and a sleek 590 x 47 boat with good flatwater speed and still some sec. stability. That should be all you need.

Even though I think it could have been achieved more directly, the great merit of Boyans ruse is that he could demonstrate the importance of surfing skills. Clearly, Boyan is not just an average surfski paddler, he rather has become an extremely good surfer, and his GPS tracks give evidence of that as much as they prove how fast a V5 can be. At least given my age, my flatwater speed is decent, but I have learned time and again that this does not help me downwind AT ALL ... so I hope Boyan once can teach me a bit.

Hi Impala,

thanks for steering the discussion toward a positive conversation.

I think you are outlining a very important concept with your attempt to improve stability by using a boat that puts you well out of the comfort zone.

I would like to comment on this further and before that I would like to say that Surfski 600 by no means suggests that everyone should buy a V5. It is a concept of making a decision of what is the most stable surfski model that can deliver on your paddling goals.

Getting back to the concept of "passive security" and the "active security" the paddler contributes. This is one of the most important concepts we teach. The only difference is that I prefer to ask people:

- How much of your stability should come from the boat and how much from the paddle?

I am looking for an answer anywhere between 30/70% and 40/60% where the smaller amount is balancing the boat (or what the passive stability of the boat delivers) and the higher amount is what we should get out of our paddles in terms of stability.

So basically a lot of our work revolves around "programming" the brain to execute movements and reactions based on the concept that most of the stability (or stability recovery when stability is lost) comes from focussing on the paddle rather than balancing the boat.

At the first stage paddlers need to see and understand the techniques we want to program, then they need to execute them properly and then repeat them enough times until they are automated.

The thing with programming is that your brain will only execute the correct movements automatically if they are repeated correctly enough times. Your brain will never execute something that wasn't programmed (especially for an activity like kayaking, which is not any natural movement we were meant to do, like walking for example).

Here is the risk about approaching improvement in stability by simply challenging yourself with a tippier boat - you have no control how your brain reacts to the challenge and from there no control at all of what is being programmed in your brain. Very often that approach will bring somewhat positive results allowing you to balance a boat better in rougher seas but most likely this will be achieved at the expense of other techniques (including forward stroke), which later will limit your further development...and this is what we call "bad habits".

I am not saying the approach is totally wrong but I would say that you could have achieved the same by simply adding paddling from time to time on your intermediate boat (4-8 cm) depending how much you would want to challenge your stability.

It takes time to build trust before someone takes recommendations from another person and I would usually not jump into solid conclusions without seeing personally someone's skill level, speak about goals in more detail and see how quickly a paddler learns new skills...

From the limited information I have about you I would have thought that a boat like V8 Pro (or equivalent from another brand) would deliver on your goals (flat water and open water). It will also allow you to have a relatively stable platform to further improve your stroke technique and the specific paddle skills related to mastering open water paddling and downwind.

Best Regards
Boyan

I was second poster on this thread having a laugh poking fun and rightfully so it transpires at Boyan's claims. His Surfski600 may have been twice as stable as an elite ski but in the event though another boat in guise of Epic V5 certainly wasn't twice as fast. But of course that's irrelevant, wasn't the point.

Though there were a few woohoos on this run there was plenty of bogging too plus a 'shipwreck' or two. Impala's last comment deserves support though Boyan. C SLewis said words to the effect that what we see depends on where we are standing and who we are. This is where I'm standing : endeavours to post pic of some skis from exactly my seated spot in my shed enjoying a beer. Pic may appear later.



First pic, I'm sitting down. On my right 5 skis. Top ski SES yes first downwind boat bought that 5 years ago way out of my depth then but still love it to bits. Note though, I'd paddled plenty before but not downwind. Closest my SR most recent downwind purchase though bought for sons, wife, mates to use but I spend plenty of time in it. Brilliant boat. Orange boat a plastic white water racer PRS and boat above my preferred all round downwind boat my Stellar SEI.

Other pic me standing up pushbike Zipp wheel foreground and ZXR 900 background.



My point is where I'm standing (metaphorically) at top is an elite ski which flies on the flat and which I can master in most conditions. Part of reason I have become a confident and capable paddler (I'll happily go out in anything and likely remain in boat) because of challenges I have faced and mastered in boats that have challenged me to get better.

And so it is with both skinny wheeled carbon fibre Boardman pushy and my motorbike. I enjoy the challenge of mastering or endeavouring to master (we never truly master) something always a little beyond me. And that's what Lewis meant by the 'who we are'. That attitude is not for everyone.

So my point is, while I endorse your sentiments of getting people into boats that are comfortable and easy, for some people the challenge itself is a some bit more than this. More than just achieving something like not falling out. And that challenge may be at the expense sometimes, and I totally acknowledge this, of being less successful/comfortable/fast. Yes sometimes easier is better.

But my thrills or whatever you want to call it Boyan, are for me beyond what a seven or eight year old (in your video) can achieve. The mastery of higher things for me anyway is higher achievement.

Hi Watto
wow...nice collection of boats you have there.

I think the best way to learn and improve is by providing concepts rather than ready answers.

I learned to paddle in Fenn Millenium and i spent 12 months with the goal of not falling in for a duration of one hour practice.

Would i have changed that knowing what i know now - 100%!

Would Boyan of year 2000 chose V8 as a main boat to practice? No way! I had just ended my swimming career, I was 24 years old, fit and confident. I wanted the fastest boat I could buy.

In 2017 reflecting on my choices I realized that i experienced proper paddling technique (proper to the level of my abilities) about 12 years after i first started paddling. I can teach myself from the past in a V8 to do all that in approximately 6 - 12 months.

I would have had 11 years to continue develop my skills and probably gradually upgrade the surfski models i was using and every time i upgraded i would make sure that the boat i was currently using gave me about the same feeling of control as the V8 did at the start.

All i'm offering is a different way to get to the same place, just that it is better, faster and safer.

Of course there are people out there who like challenges and prefer to learn the hard way and i totally respect those choices but when it comes to finding an advice that would speak to the majority of the paddlers then I would say exactly what i said with surfski 600.

I understand the sentiment that difficulties teach us life lessons but i think that most of our paddlers have enough difficulties in their lives already to have to continue reinforcing the same during their leisure time.

If one day we get to meet here in Tarifa i will ask you to paddle a stable boat if we get good Levante then i will ask you if at any point you thought "i'm not getting enough thrill...i should have been using much tippier boat".

Very rarely people tell themselves that and it is not because they feel scared or anything...it's like dropping into a 30 ft wave surfing...does it matter what color your surfboard is or how tippy it is?

Guys, I feel that this thread is promoting behaviour otherwise not tolerated on this forum. I'm also surprised that the community here did not support Impala and especially Sandysan for calling out this BS for what it is.

I would like to put the reasoning for this statement in the following points:

1) this was a deliberate misguiding of the forum users which went on for a couple of days. surfski.info is a place where we have long discussions on the smallest of details, so definitely it was no overkill that everyone took this subject close to heart - I know I did. Boyan Zlatarev had the chance to clarify the situation early on, but chose to let us on. The ending was a real let-down - a la "there is no cure for cancer, just try to stay healthy".

2) people on this forum wouldn't otherwise tolerate a fake piece of news like this, if it weren't for a relative celebrity status of BZ. There have been users banned for trolling-like behaviour, even quite borderline. I feel that BZ got off too lightly and was even praised for ingenuity - that's not cool!

3) the holy grail that is the more stable, but faster boat is not unheard of. The recent addition to the Nelo line, the 560, is said to be exactly that - increased top speed on the flat with better stability. If I understood the reviews correctly, a similar thing is said about the new V12. It is neither impossible, nor sinful! to wish for that. I think many of us really doubted those fantastical claims, but were reassured by the reputable source of an established paddling coach. I feel that this credit line got really thin now.

4) the fake solution and the message were not in sync. It applies only to DW paddling, although the speed on a surfski is primarily decided on the flat. If we all lived on the seashores of Portugal or Spain, we could go for a wide boat, but for a lot of people that would mean not going paddling on flat water days. I can't imagine many paddlers who can push a boat so wide at respective speeds with a narrow ski for even half an hour in the flat. On the other hand, with waves big enough and with a suitable interval, I can surf at over 20 km/h in a 3,5m slalom kayak.

5) the whole thing felt like a discreet advertisement for the V5 GT or the GT line of Epic skis. I am also a proponent of going as light as the budget lets one, but it's not very nice to mix a product placement with the message of safety/stability.

Anyway, this was not a thread that made me a happy member of this forum and I think this needs to be addressed more seriously, than just praising the initiator.

Hi SurfskiEstonia,

thanks a lot for your opinion. I'm not sure why this turns into a personal attack against me, Boyan Zlatarev?

I didn't start this tread.

I have tried to provide as much information as possible regarding the reason behind the Surfski 600 project and one of them is fake advertising / claims by some surfski brands where data is skewed and taken out of context. But it seems you are getting more outraged by me pointing out how people abuse data than by the people who try to scam others from their cash presenting such data?

Here are few scenarios where v5 will fulfil the graphs as they were advertised:

1. Complete beginner in any conditions (flat and waves).

2. Intermediate paddle who can't balance elite boats (flat and waves)

3. An oversized paddler who will not fit in any of the elite surfskis (flat and waves)

4. Advanced (not elite) paddler in challenging downwind conditions.

As you can see the claims are true for a wider number scenarios and people as the number of paddlers able to balance elite boats are far less than number of paddlers who could not.

Your view expressed here is exactly what i am trying to change. I say surfski is not only for elite paddlers and we need to be able to see the sport through the eyes of those who will never be as good a paddler as you probably are.

As of me advertising v5 i'm not sure what you would prefer me to say? Should i speak about boats that i never paddled or should i talk about the reality and the boats i use?

I saw someone posting a photo of their Stellar boats, should they be banned from the forum as well? I say good for them they found their Surfski 600 in those boats!

If you have followed this tread you will know that most of my clients paddle on flat water and I think for flat water paddling 90% of the paddlers should still use v5 up to V10 sport type of boats. I'm sorry if i'm offending you by actually mentioning those models but this is what i know and what i use. Please feel free to think respectively of other brands that equate to those models. For example: Think Evo is more or less V10 sport level etc as i don't have enough data to list every single model to provide political correctness.

Thanks again for your comment and I am sorry I offended you by mentioning the model of my boat.

Regards
Boyan

I am not super active on the forum but maybe my view represents the silent masses, who can't believe how bent out of shape people are getting over this !?

Perhaps more time paddling, less time stewing over nothing is the answer. Boyan, don't be discouraged by the haters The sport is too small for infighting with the few that are actively trying to expand and better it for everyone.

SurfskiEstonia wrote: /
3) the holy grail that is the more stable, but faster boat is not unheard of. The recent addition to the Nelo line, the 560, is said to be exactly that - increased top speed on the flat with better stability. If I understood the reviews correctly, a similar thing is said about the new V12. It is neither impossible, nor sinful! to wish for that. I think many of us really doubted those fantastical claims, but were reassured by the reputable source of an established paddling coach. I feel that this credit line got really thin now.
/

I paddle the new 12. The new 12 does exactly what Greg Barton describes on the Epic website. He makes no claim that the new 12 is stable on flat water.

In flat water, it's the least stable ski in the Epic line, except of course, the 14.

In downwind, it's the rocker (among other things) that makes it work.

C'mon now really... The new 12 is 21 feet long, less than 17 inches wide. Round hull, no flat spots, no flare out for secondary stability, no chines, no wings, no foils, no ventral fin...

Maybe the 560 is different, I doubt it.

You guys keep looking for that holy grail. I'm going to get a stable boat and learn how to be a better paddler.

Thanks Boyan.

I agree with LaPerouse Bay. Every new ski is advertised as faster and more stable than the competition. It never really seems to pan out that way once the boat has been tested on the market for a year. I spent 2 months in the new v12. It is a dream downwind, but on the flat it is less stable and no faster than the old v12. In confused cross chop it is vastly less forgiving than the old v12. I have also spent some time in the 560. When up on a wave it is very fast and nimble, but on the flat it is no faster and maybe a hair slower than other elite skis. In the cross chop it is very unstable, even less stable than the new v12.

Personally I am going to quit looking for the perfect ski and just be satisfied with my 37 pound leaky old v12 for the time being. It is plenty fast, very comfortable, and amazingly stable for me. I don't worry when I bang it on the corner of the garage or scrape it in the shallows. I will make it go faster and funner by improving my skills and fitness. Maybe that is my Surfski 600.

Zach:
Perhaps on a tangent, but you when you are comparing two skis, you must understand that the weight of skis matter tremendously. Here, you are making a claim, saying that your older V12 is more stable than the newer V12 version. You are comparing apples with oranges - an unfair comparison.

I cannot help wondering: how are you comparing a Nelo 560's speed?
Nevermind... it's not really a question.

To be fair, and don't feel bad, most people have great difficulties comparing skis. It's sad, but it's a fact - from having placed 100's of people on demo skis.

Another fact, far more obvious:
Most people want a Ferrari... sadly, most people (about 4 out of 5 that I meet) should seek a more stable ski - yes, even for racing purposes.

Here's some simple math:
**Get a faster ski (skinnier, faster on paper) and either go slower or see a 0.4 km/h speed increase.
**Get to use better technique on a more stable ski and you may very well see a 1 to 1.5 km/h speed increase - in no time.

Fair to say: this sport needs provocation...
GET A FREAKIN' MORE STABLE SKI.
Don't forget to totally enjoy yourselves... on the flats, or in open Ocean.

"**Get a faster ski (skinnier, faster on paper) and either go slower or see a 0.4 km/h speed increase.
**Get to use better technique on a more stable ski and you may very well see a 1 to 1.5 km/h speed increase - in no time."

Totally agree, and this underscores Boyan's point, perhaps with the addition that in my case the DW technique is probably so bad that improvement could even be better.

Nevertheless, I cherish flatwater speed simply because I do FW races with my 'fastest' ski (I just don't want to buy a master K1). I am trying to develop boats (skis, if you like) that fare well not only DW, but also flat, upwind or in confused conditions. Figuring out and comparing performance, however, is tricky.

I once systematically tested my 580 x 51 own design against the Stellar SES, conditions were flatwater, no wind. 3 test runs over 1km were done for each boat alternatingly, at a HR of 156 (my max is 190). I could only see distance and HR on the monitor and taped speed in order not to bias myself.

Results: My SES averaged at 11.6 km/h, my own design 11.35 km/h. At a 21 km race, this speed difference would amount to 143 sec that my own design would need longer. In a rough downwind race, however, I would probably not finish with the SES ...

Nevertheless my broad intermediate ski does have speed disadvantages not only in the flat, but also in waves, as I later found out to my surprise. I tested it in the same manner against another own design with the dimensions of a master K1. On the flat, there was no difference between the two boats. But when I repeated the test in confused shop and sidewind, the master K1 (which is purposely designed to be quite seaworthy) was 0.5km/h faster across all trials! My explanation is that the narrow, low-volume boat simply pushed through the waves much more easily. So a broad boat might be as fast or even faster in big conditions (which we do not always have), but might get stuck in chop, which can be a very frustrating experience.

For people who have nice biggish DW conditions most of the time, all that is probably irrelevant. But for me it is, because the wide variety of conditions I am confronted with require a versatile boat.

This is a tangent but I will respond. I have paddled old v12 in ultra layup as well as fiberglass and do not find the balance significantly different in the two weights. Also every paddler I have talked to who has used both boats describes the new v12 as tippier than the old. Re the 560 my sense of speed comes from paddling it while looking at my speed and my HR and noticing how much glide it has surfing. I don't have a financial stake in either company.

.

Some people like DW's, some people like moving their boat as fast as their bodies will allow in a variety of conditions and over varying distances. To each his own. I don't think that one is better than the other.

But just for clarification, you think that uber stable skis promote good technique ? Because that's not my experience at all. In my experience Uber stable skis are more likely to promote bad form because there is rarely any cost for bad to awful form, especially if these boats are " fast" or " fun" by whatever metric when being pushed by surf.

I'd hope that we can all get along. I don't see how a ruse ( however well intentioned one deems it) advances that goal. but like I said previously, maybe that's on me.