Intermediate skis: Knysna Blu, Evo2, Swordfish....

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9 years 3 months ago #18883 by [email protected]
Yep, I think it's going to be a true and honest test... We have a good idea of where we stand in the Tuesday Night results both in Swordfish and Evo II.

So if the V10 really is appreciably faster, we should see it in the results... And Hout Bay is such a good testing ground given the varying conditions, reflected chop, etc.

Can't wait.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 3 months ago #18887 by Kocho
To get used to the somewhat lower stability of the new V10 compared to my previous gen V10 Sport, I intentionally take the V10 in some choppy waters. I am at a point where I can paddle hard in these conditions, and I would guess I am faster in the V10 than in the V10 Sport. But, there is a BIG "but", I also expend a lot of core and arm/shoulder energy to keep upright and centered. And I am at the end more tired in the V10 than I would be in the V10 Sport. So, for folks who have not yet achieved perfect balance (like myself) we can still be faster but at the expense of more energy needed. So if he distance travelled is short, the V10 will be faster. If the distance is longer I am not very strong and I will tire faster in the V10 than in the V10 Sport, so I suspect it might be a wash or even reverse.

Unfortunately, I would never know for myself as I don't have the time and opportunity to switch skis enough to test these assumptions. I just know that after an hour and a half easy paddling at slow speeds (keeping company with a slow paddler in a sea kayak), in rather choppy conditions, I was rather tired in the V10 from just keeping balance (we did not paddle hard at all) where in a sea kayak or a V8 for example I would have hardly broken any sweat as I would not be bothered by balance issues at all in these conditions.
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9 years 3 months ago #18889 by Shackleton
Kocho:Sorry to do this on here but I could not find a way to send a private message. Did you write a review of a Valley Rapier kayak on Paddling.net a few years back? I have an opportunity to get one and can't find a whole lot of info on them.
I see a lot of reviews of fast kayaks from the mid 2000's but none newer than that. I was wondering if the people who used to race kayaks are now using surf skis.
Is the Rapier worth getting, or should I wait for a new V10 Sport
Thanks and sorry to everyone else. ( Unless you know the answer too).

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9 years 3 months ago #18891 by Kocho
Hi, yes, I wrote a review on Paddling.net of the Rapier 18 (the more recent review of the 2 it has there). I have not changed my opinion much since.

It has been a while since I sold the Rapier. At that time I got the V10 Sport. I found the Rapier was about as stable as the Sport but with the sport I could easily reenter where with the Rapier I had to roll and on occasion my rolls failed in it (probably a combination of outfitting and my poor rolling skills at the time, although I had no problem rolling other sea kayaks such as the WS Zephyr or my Perception Sonoma that I had at the time too).

I was more relaxed in the Sport than in the Rapier, knowing self rescue was easier, so I pushed it harder.

So, to me, the ski was safer and more enjoyable overall, with better ergonomics for fast paddling. I shaved what I think was about 30 minutes in the Sport compared to the Rapier in a 20 mile race (the Blackburn Challenge a couple of years ago), which might or might not have something to do with my slightly improved technique a year later, but I think the Sport was faster overall.

I think the reason to get a Rapier (or similar) would be if you paddle in cold climates a lot and if you need to carry stuff in the hatches. Closed cockpits are cosier than a ski in windy winter days. But your roll and rescue skills would need to be top notch and since I often paddle alone, I felt the ski is safer. Being more comfortable was icing on the cake :)

Perhaps, if you fit in the factory seat you will like it better. I did not fit in the seat (too narrow for my hip bones) and I never got quite comfortable in the "Bumfortable" seat that I got to replace it. I felt the foam was a bit squishy, moved about during rolling, and was not as supportive as a nice contoured hard seat. Comfort and good outfitting for you will change you opinion of the boat a lot, so if you fit in it you might form a different opinion than mine. I chose the Rapier over an Epic or similar because that was the only slim boat that could accomodate my US size 15 feet comfortably.

Lastly, I think the bow was a bit thinner than ideal. Good for upwind I though, but it would go under water and tend to stall the boat more than I felt it should have - the bow would not resurface as fast as some other kayaks with more volume in the boat and better shedding of water off the deck.
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9 years 3 months ago #18892 by Shackleton
Thank you. Very helpful. The seat what I was wondering about it didn't look that great.
I don't practice my roll enough to be very proficient with it. I just usually brace without falling in and don't practice it enough otherwise.
I think I will just wait and get a v10 sport it would be easier to get back into if I dump. I already have current designs straits for when it's cold.
Thanks again.

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9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #18893 by Kocho
Sure. By the way, I liked the seat. If it was sized for a bigger person it would have been good, I thought. But my hip bones were rubbing on the sides too much and I was pinched in it - too narrow for me... I feel similar in the older V10 - I did not even test paddle that one as again my hip bones were too tight against the sides of the seat (the sport was better but a bit wide and wobbly in the seat, the new V10 - better yet, more contact without being tight).

What is a CD straights? I don't recall seeing that model and a quick google search did. It provide an answer...
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by Kocho.

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9 years 3 months ago #18895 by Shackleton
That is supposed to be stratus, spell check changed it. Same length as Rapier, swede form maybe a little wider. Very fast kayak I have had it up around 8mph, can cruise at around 6.
Did the seat tilt you forward enough to compensate for the lack of a backband?
If i remember right you are about 6' 4", I am only apabout 6' 215, so I might fit into it better.

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9 years 3 months ago #18901 by Kocho
Sorry, don't remember. I took the seat out very soon as I could not stay in it for more than 20 minutes or so. I am 6'4" at 185lb or so, 36" waist - if you are heavier and not as tall you might even have more problems fitting in that seat. I've tried the stratus - pretty fast boat. The one I tried did not strike me as a very sturdy boat as it had quite a bit of flex but CD is know for strong construction so it probably is fine. It was light and I know it can be fast (when I tried it I was not ready for it so did not like it much)... The Rapier is a stiffer construction (I had the ProKevlar layup) and if I recall the CD did not have hatches and bulkheads, where the Rapier does.

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9 years 3 months ago #18907 by Mako

Mako wrote: Rob you have to be kicking the rudder left and right as you paddle. Your tail was flipping in time with your stroke all of the time I rode your wash. I also noticed the 'hard looks' you cast in the other ones direction as he maintained a healthy lead over you.


Just realised you were TWERKING!

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9 years 3 months ago #18910 by [email protected]

Just realised you were TWERKING!

What a terrible thought - I'm off to adjust my rudder pedals right NOW!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 2 months ago #19019 by [email protected]
Finally... the boats are on the Timefreight truck and are on their way to Cape Town. Seems there are 4 x new V10s plus a V14 that will be in Cape Town.

With any luck we'll have them in time for Tuesday's race, which, according to windfinder is going to be a blast... 18kt SSE with 2.8m swell coming from the SW at 13s. Testing conditions!

Of course we may just go do a Millers Run instead.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 2 months ago #19041 by [email protected]
My new V10 arrived yesterday and I was able to take it out for a brief 30min paddle last night.

I'll definitely be writing a lot about this boat, but suffice to say that my first impressions from Mauritius a couple of months ago were confirmed in that the boat feels fast and most certainly is stable.

My paddling buddy Dale also has one and we paddled together last night. He agrees with me that the boat has a similar level of stability to the Think Evo II i.e. very slightly less stable than the Swordfish.

We were in Hout Bay and the sea was pretty flat. We went out towards Chapmans Peak and then caught what waves there were back to the harbour. It felt to me as though the boat picks up the runs very easily.

So do we have an elite level ski speed-wise with the stability of a high end intermediate boat?

Well, for me, proof of the pudding will be in our Tuesday Series race tonight. The forecast is for a 9kt southerly breeze; there's a 2.2m 13s swell running so there should be some movement in the water.

Can't wait!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
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9 years 2 months ago #19043 by zamalek
Guys,good luck with your new V10's.Watched a well known paddler launch his brand new V10 a few days ago off Umdloti.Not too much swell with fairly decent shorebreak.He messed up coming in but the end result was horrific - surfski in half and seams split on both sides.There is no way the conditions = the result!

I hope this was just an absolute freak occurence and not an indication of build quality as all reports indicate towards a great boat.
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9 years 2 months ago #19045 by [email protected]
That's a horrible story.

And partly why we Capies are so scared of your waters.

Years ago I had my brand new carbon Mako6 in Durban for the first Durban World Cup. Being worried about the surf, the day before the race I launched from somewhere near DUC and paddled north a couple of km before turning in to come in through the small surf to the beach, I intended to practise a couple of entries and exits.

I came in behind a wave, got close to the beach, congratulated myself and stuck my feet out to prevent myself from actually hitting the sand.

I slewed sideways and a tiny little wave dumped on me and knocked me off the ski. No problem, I stood up in the waist deep water, collected my paddle and hat and walked over to pick up the ski.

Only to double-take as I realised that it had fractured. Just in front of the footwell, it was as though someone had taken a chain saw to the hull. The weird thing was that the deck was still intact, just the hull had a vertical clean break in it.

It must have been the sudden dump of additional weight of the water, combined with my weight and a sudden shock that just broke the boat.

So it was a bleak forlorn walk back along the beach to the club.

Sent it back to Keith who fixed it in the mould and I had many years of pleasure out of it before finally losing it at the end of a Milnerton to Melkbos run in the kelp when it was swept away up the coast by a 30kt southeaster. I eventually got it back, but it had spent 48hours on the rocks and was completely buggered.

So, yep, I can sympathise with someone breaking a boat in what seems like fairly benign conditions; the forces that can be placed on a hull by breaking waves are horrendous.

Happily for us, we seldom paddle through surf of any size here in Cape Town.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 2 months ago #19046 by Watto
Doesn't take much - steep fat wave, short period, bad judgement/luck and sand bank - few of those and you have two boats or one boat well-hinged..

Poor bastard.

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9 years 2 months ago #19047 by [email protected]
Oh - and not that it makes much difference, but the V10 in question wasn't actually brand new; my sources tell me it was a 6 month old, old shape V10.

But I guess the concept of one of the very latest in the country coming to grief makes a better story!

Horrible either way and my commiserations to the unfortunate driver!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 2 months ago #19048 by zamalek
2nd or 3rd paddle on the NEW boat Rob.Better check your sources.

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9 years 2 months ago #19084 by [email protected]
Can you give us names and dates please, Zamalek?

I checked with the Epic Agent in Durban and he categorically stated that only one new V10 was even delivered over the weekend and that one was definitely not broken.

So it looks as though you must be mistaken.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 2 months ago - 9 years 2 months ago #19117 by Sam_Atlas

Dale Lippstreu wrote:

The boats we are talking about have these figures:
Epic New V10 45 x 645
Fenn Swordy 45 x 610
CK Focus 46 x 642
Knysna Blu 46 x 620
Think Evo II 48 x 625



The width to length comparisons are interesting and worthwhile but I suspect they may be of limited value unless the measurements are done at the waterline.
The worthwhile bit comes in the form that the aspect ratio (length divided by width) of a hull determines how much energy has to be inputted to maintain a given speed. If we take for example a ski 6m long and 44cm wide travelling at 3 metres per second (10.8 km/h) a water molecule encountering the nose has be deflected outwards 22cm (half the width of the hull) in 1 second (the time the molecule takes to reach the middle of the hull (assuming the widest point is at the middle). Very roughly (and excluding a lot of details) the energy that has to be imparted to the water to part it as the ski moves through the water equals the energy required of the paddler to maintain the speed of the ski. In principle then if we ignore practicality and other effects such as skin drag etc the drag halves if we double the length of the ski.
The aspect ratio is therefore a very useful measure for predicting the speed of a ski and the numbers provided by owenfromwales produce the following ranking:
Ski Width Length Aspect Ratio
V10 45 645 14.333
CK Focus 46 646 14.043
Swordfish 45 610 13.556
Knysna Blu 46 620 13.478
Evo ll 48 625 13.021

The problem I have with the result is that the measurement are almost certainly taken on the deck and may be very different at the waterline. I strongly suspect that the Evo ll is much narrower than 48cm at the waterline and therefore a lot faster than shown on a relative basis.


I wonder if it would be possible of getting the measurements at the waterline from the manufacturers so that a more precise comparison can be made. In the ratio that you give weight is not considered. Should it be?
Last edit: 9 years 2 months ago by Sam_Atlas.

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9 years 2 months ago #19124 by owenfromwales
Sam Atlas,
That`s the problem eh. How can boats be accurately measured at their waterlines? It`s going to vary, getting wider as the weight of the paddler increases. Even the lay-up of the boat is going to vary the measurement of the same boat.
The reality for the paddler is that you weigh what you weigh. Some boats will favour lighter paddlers whilst others may be better for heavier paddlers, so it`s a valid point you make if you are saying that paddlers should take their own body weight into consideration too - it`s just difficult to reflect that in this list as it was put together to be comprehensive whilst also being as simple as possible.

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy
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