Intermediate skis: Knysna Blu, Evo2, Swordfish....

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9 years 3 months ago #18836 by [email protected]
Me too, can't wait!

The latest word from the agent in Durban is the container ship isn't in port yet due to bad weather... Aaaaaaaargh!

Still holding out for a delivery this week, but we may only get them next week I suspect.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 3 months ago #18839 by owenfromwales
Oi Rob, it`s still two months til Xmas over here!
Seriously though, looking forward to what you and Dale have to say about your new toys, especially how it lines up against the Evo II and also the Focus, which I haven`t heard much about lately?
Owen

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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9 years 3 months ago #18841 by Love2ski
To dale,

Going from a fenn to the epic, the biggest thing I found is that you need to keep your toes firmly planted on the pedals. The fenn rudder stays centred due to the bungy cord. The epic rudder swivels at the slightest touch. If you don't keep the epic rudder firmly centred with your toes the boat becomes quite unstable in lumpy seas as the rudder and the tail moves around violently.

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9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #18850 by Sam_Atlas
With all of the great surfskis available in South Africa, why on earth would you import one?
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by Sam_Atlas.

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9 years 3 months ago #18853 by Nige
A good question Sam, as a Saffer I don't see any logic in paying a lot more for an Epic compared with a Fenn, Carbonology or whatever other SA ski you prefer.

A brand new full carbon Fenn costs about US$1800 here!

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9 years 3 months ago #18854 by [email protected]
That's clearly a rhetorical question, implying that you shouldn't buy an import!

The reason that I'm buying the V10 is because I want one - that's all the logic I need!

I'm 50 so I need all the help I can get and I have reason to believe the boat is comfortable, is fast and is stable. I haven't found the same combination of qualities in any of the intermediate boats that are made in South Africa. Some of them are stable, some of them are comfortable, some of them are extraordinarily fun downwind, but I can't paddled any of them very fast on the flat. I grant you that maybe because I'm a crap paddler, but there we are, we live in hope.

I can't paddle the top end South African boats (which are fast) because I can't balance in them in rough water, and I like paddling in rough water.

I've paddled the new V10 (briefly) in rough water and I found it as stable as the intermediate boats. From the comments on this forum and my other research, it appears that the new V10 is as fast as other top end boats. What a combination! Maybe I'll get to the next group in our races. As I say, I live in hope.

So, I want one!

Seems logical to me!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 3 months ago #18857 by sAsLEX

robin.mousley wrote: I haven't found the same combination of qualities in any of the intermediate boats that are made in South Africa.


I would hope the popularity of the intermediate groups of skis will see the Swordfish(or other SA boats) developed or joined with others in the category. The V10 has been through a number of developments that see it where it is now, surely Fenn et al are watching this forum and the popularity of the new 10 and seeking to better it...

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9 years 3 months ago #18860 by Watto
Sage words Rob.

I don't see any logic in paying a lot more for an Epic compared with a Fenn, Carbonology .. .


Nige nor are you wrong, but there is more to heaven and earth than logic. All purchases involve head/heart battles and skis no less the case.

Logic is in the numbers of cost, weight, reliability, speed/purpose-built-ness, results etc. Rob I'm sure has measured these. But there are also looks, feel, brand-attraction (embedded subjective elements) and other things that tug at heart strings and wrestle with the head.

You're not wrong Nige but haha check out the Dempster Shafer theory which I throw up for my wife to contend with when I have a serious purchase to make.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dempster-Shafer_theory.

Basically the whole business is about probabilistic logic - who is to fkn know until you try it! Haha.

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9 years 3 months ago #18862 by Dale Lippstreu
I don't see any logic in paying a lot more for an Epic compared with a Fenn, Carbonology ..

While an Epic V10 is more expensive that a locally manufactured ski in SA the simple logic for me (using Fenn as an example) is that I find the Elite too tippy and the Swordfish too slow. If a local manufacturer produced a ski with the characteristics of a V10 I would buy it but for now I have to get pay a premium to get what I want.

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9 years 3 months ago #18863 by Dicko
Everyone seems to be hyping the v10 as a super ski.

From what I have seen, it is a nice ski. It looks great. It is heavy. Seems well built. Is it any faster than your evo or a Vault? My guess is probably not. As Latman once said, "you can have a fast ski or a stable ski", the two seem to be mutually exclusive.

Of all the skis I've paddled I reckon the Stellar SEL seems to come the closest to getting it right. They just need to sack the guy who designs the decks and seat. They just don't look as good as the v10 or a Vault or an EVO.

I'm not that convinced in small downwind that it is any faster than any other intermediate ski. It may be good the bigger it gets. The v12 seemed to be a bit like that.

Looking forward to your opinions.

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9 years 3 months ago #18864 by Sandy
Curious here , what will you wind up paying for a new V10 in SA ?

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9 years 3 months ago #18867 by Metro
Dicko -

I'll start by saying that I have not paddled the new V10. I'm trying to wait patiently for the new V10L. But, the annecdotal evidence for the new V10 is very strong.

When I was racing a V10 Sport, then a Swordfish, I found that I was always battling with paddlers in other imtermediate boats. When I moved up to an elite boat (which was timed correctly, when I could handle it), the intermediate boats disappeared behind me (although there will always be exceptions). That was not because I was a better paddler, it was because I was paddling a faster hull. Off the line there generally will be Evo IIs, Swordfi, Sports, etc. around , but I find that if I just keep the power on a gap will open and I am away. The skinnier boat is just more efficient.

Likewise the new V10 seems to always be battling at the front with the elite skis, not with the intermediates. Results show that it is very fast and in Australia we are seeing placings that have never been seen from intermediate boats. An interconnected point is that we are seeing a lot of elite paddlers (or if not elite, very fast experienced paddlers) riding the new V10.

If we can stipulate that the new V10 is fast, we still need to decide if it is stable. Here I have nothing more helpful than noting that everyboyd who has paddled it bangs on about its stability. My sense is that that is not all hype.

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9 years 3 months ago #18869 by owenfromwales
Back in April I updated the list of skinniest boats (with length used to separate boats of equal width). Of course, boats have lots of things that change their speed and balance in the water, but these, within reason, are the two most relevant when comparing potential boat speeds.

www.surfski.info/forum/2-announcements/1...-a-ski.html?start=40
(on p.3 of the thread).

Back then I suggested this could be used as a very general way to group boats, ie boats narrower than 45cm could be classified as Elite, Between 45 and 50 as Intermediate and over 50cm wide as beginners (just to keep it simple).

The boats we are talking about have these figures:
Epic New V10 45 x 645
Fenn Swordy 45 x 610
CK Focus 46 x 642
Knysna Blu 46 x 620
Think Evo II 48 x 625

So, looking at the figures above, it can be seen that both the New V10 and the Swordy are right on the edge of the Intermediate/Elite border. Therefore it shouldn`t come as much of a surprise if the V10 has speeds not far off the recognised Elite boats, and that the 35cm that the Swordy gives away could be largely responsible for some paddlers claims about that boat`s slower speed in comparison to the V10 (leaving out engine abilities and conditions).
Comparing the speeds of the V10 with the Evo II also reflects the differences in width above. The New V10 is much closer in dimensions to the Think Ion (44.5 x 642), which Think have noted in their advertising as being the link boat between Intermediate and Elite.
Everybody`s searching for the holy grail of surfskis, that lightning fast boat that is as stable as a barge in any conditions. Reality is though, if you find the ski for you, that`s the one you should get!

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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9 years 3 months ago #18872 by Dale Lippstreu

The boats we are talking about have these figures:
Epic New V10 45 x 645
Fenn Swordy 45 x 610
CK Focus 46 x 642
Knysna Blu 46 x 620
Think Evo II 48 x 625



The width to length comparisons are interesting and worthwhile but I suspect they may be of limited value unless the measurements are done at the waterline.
The worthwhile bit comes in the form that the aspect ratio (length divided by width) of a hull determines how much energy has to be inputted to maintain a given speed. If we take for example a ski 6m long and 44cm wide travelling at 3 metres per second (10.8 km/h) a water molecule encountering the nose has be deflected outwards 22cm (half the width of the hull) in 1 second (the time the molecule takes to reach the middle of the hull (assuming the widest point is at the middle). Very roughly (and excluding a lot of details) the energy that has to be imparted to the water to part it as the ski moves through the water equals the energy required of the paddler to maintain the speed of the ski. In principle then if we ignore practicality and other effects such as skin drag etc the drag halves if we double the length of the ski.
The aspect ratio is therefore a very useful measure for predicting the speed of a ski and the numbers provided by owenfromwales produce the following ranking:
Ski Width Length Aspect Ratio
V10 45 645 14.333
CK Focus 46 646 14.043
Swordfish 45 610 13.556
Knysna Blu 46 620 13.478
Evo ll 48 625 13.021

The problem I have with the result is that the measurement are almost certainly taken on the deck and may be very different at the waterline. I strongly suspect that the Evo ll is much narrower than 48cm at the waterline and therefore a lot faster than shown on a relative basis.
The following user(s) said Thank You: owenfromwales

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9 years 3 months ago #18873 by owenfromwales
Yes, totally agree with you Dale. As you can probably tell, I took the measurements from the makers` websites. Knowing the water-line width would indeed be more useful, especially if some of them have more of a V shape hull than others with a U shape. (And same could be said for waterline length too).

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #18874 by Dale Lippstreu

Love2ski wrote: To dale,

Going from a fenn to the epic, the biggest thing I found is that you need to keep your toes firmly planted on the pedals.


Thanks for the advice. I used to have that problem quite a lot until Oscar Chalupsky pointed out that he inclines his foot pedals slightly forward. I really liked it once I got used to it and it has greatly reduced my tendency to feint lefty and right with each paddle stroke.
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by [email protected]. Reason: Fixed quote tags

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9 years 3 months ago #18876 by Mako
Rob you have to be kicking the rudder left and right as you paddle. Your tail was flipping in time with your stroke all of the time I rode your wash. I also noticed the 'hard looks' you cast in the other ones direction as he maintained a healthy lead over you.

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9 years 3 months ago #18877 by [email protected]
Hmm... Thanks Johan, I'll adjust the rudder pedals accordingly!

Ya, we're 2-2 and all to play for!

In those conditions it was vital to hook onto a good slip and I didn't!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 3 months ago #18879 by [email protected]
Update: our V10s arrive in Durban tonight so we should get our hands on them in about a weeks time. Reports back after that.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 3 months ago #18881 by Mako
So Rob, in two weeks time this one on his PCR, tandem Bullet Scuppered, deep footwell Sworfish will be up against you and the other one in V10's

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