Think Evo - Over Stern Rudder

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11 years 4 months ago #6882 by lolagt
Is this Think or just their dealers screwing around with customers? I don't know the history of this boat but agree with Cody91 about Epic - when the lengthlock on my midwing paddle separated from the shaft they were very apologetic offering to replace the entire paddle or rebuild it to new standards. I opted for the rebuild (as the new paddle would have taken longer as it wasn't in inventory) and got mine back fedex within a week. I'm sure people have other experiences with Epic but mine certainly was very positive.

If this was a Think company issue the boat should have been taken out of circulation permanently and not passed around to other customers.

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11 years 4 months ago #6884 by Kocho
While it seems unlikely to have two so similar boats at the same dealer, we actually do not know for certain if this is indeed the same boat. I would not jump to conclusions just yet...

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11 years 4 months ago #6886 by Rightarmbad
But isn't it fun to speculate......

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 4 months ago #6889 by Kocho
The suspence ... :ohmy:

I found where it is leaking from - easy to fix. Yesterday I had decided to just fix it and keep it since I quite like the ski otherwise. I don't mind the slightly imperfect finish and the price was already adjusted enough by the dealer for the cosmetics.

However, while drying the water from the inside through the front hatch, I found two areas where the fiberglass fabric layer on the inside has delaminated from the core mat. About 2-3 inches by an inch long each. The fabric is just lifted off the mat and sticks-up in a bubble. I can press it down in with my finger and it pops right-up... It's covered with epoxy, just for some reason it has delaminated... The weight of the ski is about 37-38lb on my scale. A bit over the advertised 34lb.

Who knows what else is not glued together on this ski. This should have never left the factory and if it did, it should be so deeply discounted that one can paddle it till it falls apart and not worry about resale value...

Anyway, I'll keep you posted. The dealership is very up-right about it and is not giving me any problems - I can return it if I want or I can keep it. But with this new "discovery" I just don't want to take the risk of "what's next" with it...

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11 years 4 months ago #6891 by Rightarmbad
If I was Think, I'd deliver a new one to your door and take the old one back for inspection and destruction.

They could easily turn what is again turning out to be a tarnish on their reputation into a good worldwide PR exercise.


But I suspect that they will probably more than likely miss the opportunity to wipe the slate clean of all ill feelings.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 4 months ago #6892 by Sandy
You got a lemon.....get rid of it ! I still have a sour taste in my mouth from isssues with two think skis !

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11 years 4 months ago #6893 by DarylRemmler
Hello all,
I would like to clarify that the boat in question was purchased as a demo boat, and discounted to the current owner. It was not sold as a new product.
It was originally shipped by common carrier (not Think's choice), and previously owned by a customer who returned it for a full refund (claiming shipping damage and cosmetic concerns).
Sandy regarding your boats, I will remind you that the first issue was repaired at Think's expense, and I'm quite certain you loved the boat, so much so, that you purchased a second one. The second boat you had a problem with was purchased as a discount closeout, and you paddled it for several months before you damaged the rudder. This is not a warranty.
Please do not distort the truth.
Mr Rightarmbad, I have no idea what your experience is with Think products directly, but your feedback and advice is appreciated.
Best regards,
Daryl Remmler
Think Kayak Inc.

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11 years 4 months ago #6894 by Sandy
Distort the truth ???? , pot callin the kettle black there Daryl.

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11 years 4 months ago #6895 by lolagt
Kocho,
You should get rid of the ski, interior delamination is going to be very hard if not impossible to fix properly - it would be cheaper to replace the boat.

Regarding the weight issue I wonder if the fiberglass or other composites have not absorbed water over time from the leaks - I had that happen in my carbon/kevlar sea kayak just from damage to the gelcoat and I was amazed at (1) how much water soaked in and (2) how long it took to dry out. I've been fastidious ever since in touching up my gelcoats but a boat with a serious leak like yours would be another matter.

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11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6896 by Kocho
I just want to share that I have received nothing but prompt and 100% satisfactory (to me) responses to my questions from both the dealer and Daryl from Think.

The boat is what it is and things like that do happen, unfortunately. Let's remember that this *is* the same boat that Cody91 bought, so the "quality control" problem has not grown any worse since that particular boat was produced -;) The leak was just never fully fixed - it is a slow leak and you need to spend some time in the water to notice there is water accumilating because the amount that gets in is very small. I actually noticed that I got drips from the scupper area after the cockpit was dry so that tipped me off the water is coming from inside the ski. It drips just a drop a second let's say so I can imagine it gets in probably just as slowly.

I was able to see last night exactly where it was leaking from and have already fixed it myself. Not a big deal. But I'm pretty sure that particular leak was not due to shipping damage (may be the original leak was, I don't know, but what I fixed seems to be caused from insufficient sealant around one small area of the drain tube. Also, the sealant used there had not adhered well - it was very easy to remove it where it was flaky with a tiny screwdriver. I don't know who put that sealant there or what kind of sealant was used but that small leak is now fixed (I hope) - all it took was two drops of marine goop and a wet finger to smooth it.


The delaminations probably no one noticed since you have to look quite carefully to see them due to the location and patterns of the fabric. They are not at all obvious from the outside nor does shining a light through the hull show them as shadows. One has to look at them from just the proper angle to observe that the fabric there is slightly raised, and if you have long hands can actually feel it give-in from the inside of the hull only. That's something I missed the first time I looked at it despite the fact that I was looking for issues given how sloppy and obviously touched-up and sanded-down the outside paint/gell coat was. So I imagine whoever did the QC of this boat probably missed them as well.

Just something to look for if one buys a ski (any ski, I'd guess, not just a Think). But with most skis that do not have hatches one can't really see such delaminations at all...
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by Kocho.

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11 years 4 months ago #6898 by Rightarmbad
Hi Darryl,my experience with Think boats in my life has only been paddling next to guys that have them, and they are usually all smiles.

Otherwise there is not a lot of presence in a retail sense in my neck of the woods, so your boats were passed over by me on my hunt to purchase a new boat a little while ago.

Still never sat in one, but will one day.

I like that you are pushing the fit out standards for skis; for example, I think all skis should come with the little built in weed guard and leash attachment points.
This I like, and will certainly be a big consideration for my next purchase.

What I don't understand is the thinking of putting this boat back out there.
It can only do you harm.
If there is delamination, then the ski has in addition to being leaky, also been compromised structurally.

Imagine if this boat now failed at sea and put the new owner in a rescue situation.

If an unqualified owner can find this problem, then why couldn't the dealer/ manufacturer?
I think that not enough weight was given to the original problem and that a thorough inspection was in order before you even thought of recouping costs by selling it again.

We all understand that sometimes a bad product gets through, but when it is caught later on, then I believe that the only sensible response from the maker, is to go out of their way to do more than customer expects from them, and make it into an opportunity for growth not bad press.

Now for somebody like myself, I'll probably be looking to upgrade within the year, I want to know, that if I purchase from you, that I can be assured that should a problem such as this eventuate, that I am not going to come off second best.
If the manufacturer comes to the party in a case like this, performs better than I expect from them, then come time for me to purchase, it will not be a consideration.

But if I am left in a situation of, love the ski, especially the features that you have that others do not, I don't want to be left with a decision of, OK this is the ski for me, but I'm not sold on the after sales service should I get the one in a million bad boats that get through.
If there is doubt, I will stick with other manufacturers that have shown me a commitment to back up their product.

I am sure that most people think similarly, I'm not prepared to risk my dollar: I can accept that I may break it in an unusual circumstance on the water, I may forget to strap it down on the racks and wreck it, but I simply cannot accept that a manufacturing/ shipping, whatever fault will put me out of the water and out of pocket.

I know from my own experience, that a better than expected experience will leave smiles all around, a less than expected experience, can, and usually does, turn into an unmitigated disaster.

Going back to the very original problem with this boat, when the boat was eventually offered to be replaced or returned, the response in most people's minds was positive, whereas up until that point, most readers would have a negative attitude towards the whole thing.

Thank you for becoming involved with this thread, a smart manufacturer can and should use this forum to address problems that come to light here, after all, we are on a world wide stage........What better chance to show the world how good Think products are.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 4 months ago #6899 by cody91
Kocho,

I had a bad feeling you had purchased the Evo I bought earlier. There aren't too many skis being sold in this part of the country (but that's changing). I tried to repair the leak (3 times using epoxy) per Mr. Remmler's instructions but it seemed the leak kept coming back. I was rather dismayed because this boat was sold to me as a "new" first quality boat but I was spending more time repairing it than I was paddling. From what I remember, it was also leaking in the rudder compartment. Hopefully they repaired that before selling it to you.

Good luck to you. It seems you're really handy with boat repair. That will probably be good skill to have when owning a boat from Think. I kinda share Sandy's sentiments on this matter. Based on my past experiences, I don't think I will ever purchase another Think boat unless someone gives to me for free. I think they have great designs but lousy quality control and sub standard customer service. My 2 cents.

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11 years 4 months ago #6901 by fredrik
I'm paddling the Uno after enjoying both the Evo and Legend. All in all very happy Think customer (the poor quality stickers are however irritating).

I fully support RAB's last message. I do believe it is fair to expect and demand that new boats shold be in mint condition at the time of purchase (later it may look like a dog after being gragget over the beach, strapped to the car or stored in the garden) . Why do ski manufacturers suggest that new-ski-buyers should fix leaks and defects on new skis? I don't get it. This would be unheard of if buying a new bike - same price range product. Many of the bike companies are also small, so it can not be a matter of economic strength.

Given all the production issues with lightweight skis, I hope companies like Think have a included a refund/indeminification clause in case of poor production quality.

I ‘m sure Daryl is an enthusiast, wishing us all the best but what info are we missing? Therefore it is just plain impossible to understand the defensive approach to its current and potential customers.

Please explain – anyone?

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11 years 4 months ago #6902 by DarylRemmler
In this case, we are speaking of a boat that almost certainly had the initial leak/damage created during common carrier shipping, that was not arranged by Think. The customer was directed to return the boat to a local dealer for inspection and repair (even though they purchased elsewhere). That is reasonable.
The customer also felt the cosmetic finish was not up to standard, so a full refund was arranged, and the boat was returned to a local dealer. I am still at a loss as to how this is poor customer service, but in this case the customer does not agree that this was fair treatment.
The second customer purchased the boat as a used, discounted boat from a dealer. I have not seen the boat in 10 months, and it has had two owners. I have no idea what the boat has experienced in this period of time. I have not inspected the boat. Both the dealer and Think have stood fully behind the product.
As to the suggestion of removing this boat from the market, and destroying it, as it is bad for Think's reputation, yes, I agree this is one possibility. From my perspective, the boat in question had shipping damage. This should not doom a boat. It can be repaired, discounted, and be enjoyed. I work in a composite shop where I see 10 carbon road bikes a week being mended from shipping or crash damage. None of these are thrown away, nor should they.
Yes, a new boat should be new. This is why we refunded Ed's (Cody91) money when he was unhappy with the product. Unfortunately I can not quickly replace a boat quickly or effectively. I build these in the tens, not the thousands. Perhaps this is why Ed is unhappy, and I'm sorry to disappoint. Doing my best here everyday.
Best regards,
Daryl Remmler
Think Kayak Inc.

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11 years 4 months ago #6903 by lolagt
I am not familiar with Think skis but it seems to me that Kocho is saying he is very happy with the way this is being handled and that Cody91 got a full refund. It seems that Think never got the boat back after Cody91 returned it and it is possible that the dealer didn't recognize the scope of the repairs that were needed.
At least Think has someone who is willing to post on here and try to explain what is happening and I give them a lot of props for that. I'm very happy with my Epic ski and paddles but seem to remember that it was only last year or so that there was a huge thread on here about their quality (maybe I'm wrong but that is what I remember).
It seems that both customers have or will be made whole, until other Think owners chime in it seems premature to pass judgment on all Think products on the basis of this one boat.

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11 years 4 months ago #6904 by fredrik
Hey,

Maybe it is all about communication and by using direct email, surfski.info, Facebook, Twitter etc. the record can be set straight quickly.

No doubt, these forum pages are used as referrence when shopping for skis and goods.

Just a thought, although I understand that it just adds to an already hectic day

Keep up the good work :cheer: :-)

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11 years 4 months ago #6905 by cdo
Hi,
I will certainly add my name as a very satisfied Think owner...as already stated my Evo I is and has been almost perfect in every way. My comment is that by physical examination only, Evo II appears not to be as high a standard as the original Evo.

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11 years 4 months ago #6906 by ejpoulsen
yeah, i bet there are a lot of happy Think paddlers out there, like me, who are busy living and enjoying our well-designed and built skis, so we don't bother mentioning our satisfaction.

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11 years 4 months ago #6915 by Sandy
To Set the record straight ! Daryl , the second think ski I bought was not "discontinued" or "closeout". Had a lengthy discussion with the dealer today and they confirmed that they had not purchased the boat from you as such. The Dealer is free to sell the ski at whatever price they choose . The failure of the"epoxy blob" that was critical to the issues I had with both skis is well spoken to and documented(see previous threads and picture). I personally feel it is highly unproffesional of you to cast aspersions on my personal integrity ("distort the truth") Sorry you are having a challenge with your quality control , that however is no excuse for berating a two time consumer of your products. You are correct , I very much like the design of your skis. If you are unable to deal with consumer issues within the margins of your business model then maybe you are in the wrong business. Insinuating that your consumers (and in my case a supporter of your ski design) are "distorting the truth" (that WOULD BE LYING ) regarding their respective experiences with your product is surely not a direction in support of a thriving business.
I find it Ironic that the focus of this thread is a "demo" ski. In my mind a "demo" demonstrates the attributes of a product. Poor finish , off center hardware mounts , leaks , composite delaminations.......GREAT DEMO. I truly hope you can work through all of this , you wouldn't be the first ski Mfg. to do so.

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11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6916 by Kocho
May be time to split the thread since the original was about the overstern rudder...

Anyway, here is a photo of the couple of delaminations I can see. Sorry, hard to get a camera there but I think it is visible enough. You can see that there is also beginning to have some discoloration there due to the water that was leaking inside through the scupper area (now I had fixed that, it appears, so no more leaks).

Much easier to feel than to see - just push the fabric in with a finger and it gives-in then pops back-up when you let go...

Let me see how attachments work for this forum...

Attachments:
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by Kocho.

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