Think Evo - Over Stern Rudder

More
12 years 5 days ago #5291 by cody91
I recently purchased a Think Evo surfski and had it outfitted with an over stern rudder so I could also use it on a few river races near the Chesapeake Bay. My current setup has the rudder lines running from the under stern rudder compartment access hole (located on the rear deck) directly to the Smarttrack over stern rudder housing. This setup seems to work ok but it is not very elegant. Has anyone done something similar with their surfski and perhaps used a more elegant design that allowed a quick swap between an over stern and under stern setup? Any thoughts and ideas would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 4 days ago #5301 by [email protected]
Sorry, Perhaps this is just me, but how can anyone do that to a surfski?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 4 days ago #5302 by lolagt
I did that to my V10 Sport for rivers too, I used the Smartrack sytem like you with the mounting bracket from Epic. I threw out their rudder cable and went with stainless steel instead and then used the Smarttrack cool rudder wedge kit to attach the cables to the tiller bar. That way there are no knots or crimps to make, to switch to the shark fin rudder you pull the wedges out of the overstern rudder and reinsert them on the spreader bar at the top of the understern rudder. It takes about five minutes to switch from overstern to understern, you only have to coil up the excess cable to stop it dragging in the water.
Sorry if it sounds confusing it is actually very simple - I tried to attach a picture of the kit, I got mine online from Chesapeake light boats for about $12 US.
As to why you would need to do this, if you have to ask you probably don't ever paddle on tidal rocky rivers or alternatively enjoy replacing bent/jammed understern rudders once a month.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6862 by Kocho
Let me revive this topic - my Think Evo also comes with an overstern rudder (in addition to the understern).

Looking at the photo of the SmartTrack kit, the question I still remains for me - how to route the cables out from the rudder box to the overstern rudder? The "attach" part I think is clear although I have not yet tried it.

But the rudder box/hatch is slightly recessed down into the rear deck. So when the rudder lines go over the stern, they will rub against the hatch opening edge. Probably not a big deal, but does not look "elegant" and I have some concerns about having my rudder hatch open and exposed to the elements and the possibility of stuff going in there or falling out...

The ideal solution would be to drill through the hull into the rudder box and install short tubes for the lines to go through. Should not be too difficult, but there is no access from below on the rear deck, so one has to work from outside...

Ahy ideas/photos? Btw, I'm too in the Chesapeake area so I might see you there on the water soon...

Thanks!
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by Kocho.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6863 by cody91
Kocho,

Thanks for your interest in this post. I ended up returning the Think Evo II to Daryl Remmler. It arrived with a damaged drain which caused some leaking as well as some holes in the rudder compartment. There's discussion string on this website somewhere. I ended up purchasing an Epic V12 from Brian Blankenship (I believe you know him) and I've been very happy with it.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6864 by Kocho
Yes, I know Brian. Great guy! Glad you are happy with the V12 - I felt I struggled with it even in flat water so decided to not jump to a 17" ski just yet. If my prior experience is any indication, mastering the V12 would have taken me a couple of years of struggling with it, and I'm not that dedicated -;)

Two quick question on your Evo. First, did the front hatch actually have a hatch container of some sort in it? Mine is wide open - once I unscrew the cap I can see all the way into the hull. There is nothing to actually store things in - they'd be rolling about in the hull free... Wondering if all are like that or not. Suppose, not a big deal to install a sock behind the hatch myself, just curious.

Second, did your Evo come with cutouts for a narrower paddle entry? Looks like this is a new feature - I've seen some earlier models without these cutouts and I think it makes a positive difference to have them.

EDIT: Answers, yes to both. According to www.geartrade.com.au/page-9188.html ...

From what I see on the Think Evo I got, the quality is not as high as on the Epics. Both in terms of assembly as well as in execution. On mine the finish is not smooth (mini-bubbles on the gel coat/paint all over), the hull is not perfectly smooth (with slight waviness of the layup), and the handle screws are kind of off-center a bit. None of this probably matters much for performance. What does matter is that the drainage is rather slow - the design of the drain port is crud-ish. I'm making a bullet from foam to see if that would help - the way it is now, the cone under the hull looks large and way too steep so not especially hydrodynamic (IMO). If adding a bullet improves drainage I will experiment with removing the factory cone from the ventury drain and make my own - lower profile and more hydrodynamic...

I wanted to buy used this time since I'm not sure how long I'm staying with the "intermediate" ski. Unfortunately, the only recent issue V10 Sport I found was down in FL, a 2,000 round-trip. As tempting as it was to drive and try it, there was a chance that I would not fit in it, if the V12 and V8 were any indication of cockpit length... Then the used Evo popped-up locally so I grabbed it.

I do fit well in the Evo and for my amateurish paddling needs I think it is fine. Plus the overstern rudder will be handy on the Potomac or in the rare case I paddle in weeds somewhere.
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by Kocho.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6865 by lolagt
Kocho,

I've logged about 200 miles with the stern rudder and so far have not noticed any grooving on the collar around where the rudder cover goes. I admit I'm not wild about the lines touching the boat where they exit the rudder hatch but at least they don't seem to be doing any damage. I also went with stainless steel lines as I wasn't sure if the standard lines would chafe with the rubbing.

I can post photos if that helps. One thing I have wondered is if anyone has any thoughts on whether a stern rudder makes a ski less stable (obviously in waves it makes broaching more likely) because it is both at the end of the boat and not as deep in the water?

Rob

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6866 by Kocho
Thanks!

As for the overstern vs. understern for stability, I would think the understern would be a bit more stable due to the way the overstern tends to wiggle in directions it should not (where my understern is tight and does not wobble sideways).

Also, not sure how the overstern affects the ski (have not used it yet), but the understern clearly tilts the sky in the turn. Not sure yet if this is a good or a bad thing or if it matters at all....

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6867 by cody91
Kocho,

On your first two question:

1) The Evo did not have a sock/container in the front hatch.
2) It did have front cutouts for better paddle entry.

If you bought the Evo locally (e.g. ARC) than you probably have the Evo I returned. I believe they were going to try and repair it for possible resale. The one I had was exactly as you described. Very sloppy finish and the handle screws were off center. It also had a very slow drain and it was much heavier than the advertised 34lbs. It was more like 42 lbs. When I mentioned the slow drain to Think they said I wasn't paddling fast enough. The fit and finish on the Epic V12 is superior to the Evo I had. The sale price on the Epic was also several hundred dollars less and the after sales support has been outstanding.

Good luck with your Evo. I think my favorite part about the Evo was the bucket. For me it was little more comfortable than the V12 but that's the only upside I can think of.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6870 by Kocho
I may have bought yours... Got it from Appomattox River Co. (paddleva.com).

Now I got to re-read your thread and see if they fixed whatever you returned it for. They said it has never been sold or even paddled as they "just installed the rudder"... The overstern appears unused indeed but the understern was bent. I had to fix it myself after I bought the ski since what they did was no good (some washers and the shaft was still bent). The scupper area also appears to have seen some work...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6871 by cody91
It sounds like you may have. The scupper area was leaking so they may have added some additional epoxy. The understern was fine when I had it and I used the overstern most of the time. If it is my boat, it's definitely been paddled. ARC is not really set up to repair these types of boats. Their main business/inventory is polyethylene kayaks so I suspect any repairs they have made are probably not of a high standard. If you want to discuss further, send me a message on Cpakayaker and we can discuss over email.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6872 by Kocho
Yup. Your boat -;( And it is still leaking. From the scupper for sure, not sure if it leaks from somewhere else. It's got the side gell coat crack you describe in your thread too and it feels like it is a little softer on that side (which I dismissed initially), but if these developed from paddling and not banging around as the store told me, this is worrisome and will probably continue if it has only been on the water for a month...

I was OK with the cosmetic blems but this thing is still leaking. At the price I paid cosmetic blems are OK but structural issues - not. Probably not the dealer's fault most likely either. I think the dealer should straighten this out with Think until the boat is not leaking before they try to sell again. It would be a fair deal to sell again, once it is fixed...

Thanks for the note. I'll contact you through CPA.
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by Kocho.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6873 by cdo
Hi,
This thread is getting off the original topic so I will contunue on the off topic tack this is taking. The original EVO (in most countries) was built in China, EVO II has the paddle cutouts in the deck and is built by another manufacture. I have an original Evo in my fleet from new and it has been almost a perfect ski in build, finish and durability. I have never paddled an EVO II and it would be interesting to compare but by physically examining the two I have to say what were "Think thinking?" with the EVO II. Evo II is definately heavier than Evo I. My kevlar Evo I weights nearly 3/4 of a kg less than then advertised weight. The three Evo II's in the carbon infused layout I have examined all weight much more than the advertised weight which was no where near the original Evo's advertised. It would appear that in reality Evo II is heavier. The external finish of Evo II appears to be inconsistant to say the least...one of the three almost new hulls I would rate as very average, the other ok and the last not too bad. In contrast I would have rated the finish on the original Evo as a "work of art almost". The original Evo obviously had a top mould free of ripples etc....Evo II even on the ok finished ones are still suffering from the imperfect dips from the most likely imperfect mould? Lastly the fit out of Evo II is a real eye opener.....that front hatch looks like it was installed by my 10 year old. This is in contrast to the the very high standard of fitout of my original Evo.
So in summary from my physical comparison: weight is up, built quality of the moulds is well down and fit and finish is very poor. Evo II might be a better ski to paddle with the new hull shape changes though??
Personally as a very happy original Evo owner I wouldn't consider an Evo II.
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by cdo.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6875 by Rightarmbad
If this is correct, then I just gotta shake my head.

What right thinking manufacturer would risk their public reputation for the measly price of one sub standard ski?

Looks down, places head in hands and walks away in disbelief....

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6876 by Kocho
Yes, this is an Evo II. I did not even pay attention to that until I figured there is a "II" - it says so on the side :laugh:

Both hatches (rudder and front "ventillation" hatch - there is no bag in mine) are installed with visible goop applied not that gently :dry: There are lots of fiberglass debree inside the hull visible through the front hatch. I shone a light through the hull as much as I could and the actual laminate appears more or less consistently thick. But the gel coat and paint are less than good with rough transitions between the gray and orange areas (with edges that are rough to the touch, not just wiggling in places instead of forming a straight line). The stickers are peeling off as mentioned...

The cockpit length is however good and the thing paddles nice.

I took it out for a first time yesterday (only for an hour, enough to get a cup of water inside the hull as it turned out). That was in relatively fast moving water (5-8mph) and did some minor surfing on small standing waves in a river rapid near my home. The Evo has exactly the satbility I need (not too much, not too little). It is rather unaffected by the currents, whirlpools, and eddylines and the large understern rudder controls it very well. There was also strong-ish wind of up to probably 20mph - I could go in any direction without much struggle (as long as I had enough speed).

The footwell drain on the other hand is slow. And the foot well holds a considerable amount of water. The Epic V8 would drain for me very quickly and I had to barely have it moving (how's just 4mph for a dry cockpit :woohoo: ). That it held less water to start with helped too. In contrast the Evo needs to be moving much faster (I actually have to put some effort to get it to a speed where it begins to drain) and when it does, it does so slower. Or at least takes a lot longer to drain because it holds more water.

I installed a temporary bullet behind the scupper on the bottom (from shaped foam) and that helps just a bit with drainage - now I can hear the sucking sound once the cockpit is empty, where without it I don't recall hearing that noise.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6877 by lolagt
Kocho,
Very interested to hear about your bullet - did you carve it out of minicell and what dimensions did you use? I'be been thinking of adding one to my V10 I know that Red7 sells them but I don't know where to get a premade bullet in the USA. Do you have any leads on where some might be available?
Thanks,
Rob

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6878 by lolagt
Just remembered that Rob from this site said he was going to start selling bullet kits but I can't find any on surfski.info, can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks,
Rob

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6879 by Kocho
For the bullet - I used pink construction foam R200 or something like that. Minicell would have worked too. The construction foam is more rigid so it is better for experimenting. It is lighter too. I've used that same foam as a filler that provides the shape for a carbon-covered paddle I made (a greenland style) and that worked quite OK for that application.

I just wanted to see if the shape works or not and this foam is extremely easy to cut with a knife or sand down with a 100 grit paper. A drop or two of contact cement holds it in place.

I actually do not know what the dimensions of a bullet need to be for best performance. I would imagine something that maintains a foil shape would be good. I just carved it to be may be 2-3 times longer than the front scupper cover and as oval as I could get it without trying too hard. The distance b/w the bullet and the front cover of the scupper as well as the relative height and shape of the bullet in that area probably matter a lot too. I eyeballed all that, to get an opening roughly similar or slightly bigger than what I estimate the thru the hull opening of the drain is. And I rounded the edges of the bullet near the junction with the front cover.

Took about 10 minutes to get that done - faster than to type all that above...

Seems to help - drainage feels just ever so slightly faster and I'm sure the drag is less (although of course I can't measure, just assuming there is less turbulence).

The next step would be to shape one a bit more carefully, paint a layer of epoxy on top of it for durability, ot better yet use a piece of carbon cloth. But I need to see with the store what will happen to this particular ski before I start modding...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6880 by lolagt
Thanks for the info, I'll mock one up and see if it makes a difference. Best of luck with your boat, I agree with you that blemishes are one thing but structural repairs unless done by a known specialist are something else. Keep us posted on what happens.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 4 months ago #6881 by cody91
Rightarmbad wrote:

If this is correct, then I just gotta shake my head.

What right thinking manufacturer would risk their public reputation for the measly price of one sub standard ski?

Looks down, places head in hands and walks away in disbelief....


Rightarmbad,

I definitely agree with you. It seems this particular boat's journey from one unsatisfied customer to another is doing wonders for Think's reputation. It doesn't seem like a very good business decision, does it? I probably would have had the customer return the boat, destroy it and issue another one with imppeccable quality but that doesn't seem like Think's business model. Based on my past customer experience, Epic's overall boat construction, value for the dollar, and customer support is in a totally different league than Think Kayaks.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

  • No posts to display.