Spectra Q power line in Australia?

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12 years 2 months ago #11196 by Kayaker Greg
Where is the line wearing CDO?

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12 years 2 months ago #11197 by cdo
Hi Greg,

Line wearing in the usual places: mostly near the pedals but also at all 4 through hole fittings (though no where near as bad as the pedals). I had previously done the "Plastic Line Stoppers" modification and this improved the steering response and slowed down the wear. I can expect that the wear is a non issue in some geographic locations, as it is the braid in the line that appears to allow fine sand in that greatly accelerates the wear.

I have just heard from a fellow Think owner that replaced his Power q with similar line to Stellar's gray stuff.....result he couldn't believe how deaf this steering felt and soon replaced back to Power Q. In his words "I couldn't believe the difference, just by moving the pedals by hand: without the Power Q it felt jerky and as smooth as with the Power Q back on".

Lastly I know this is the wrong area but what is with Stellar's bung for the drain.....could they get lower tech if they tried? Just look at Thinks simple solution that works perfectly compared with the 'let's play hunt the bung then place in the bailer!' Don't get me wrong I believe Stellar do many things better than Think but Stellar really let their act down on a few silly things.

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12 years 2 months ago #11198 by duncangroenewald
Whitworths Marine have something called Dyneema (waxed) - its basically the same as the line used on EPICs. Don't go thinner than 3mm. This does not have a braided outer casing. I think the Q-Powerline does have.

Make sure its 100% Spectra 2000 fibres.

Be aware there are some lines called Spectra rope but they are polyester.

I have not noticed any wear on the Dyneema line (2 years apprx use)

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12 years 2 months ago - 12 years 2 months ago #11260 by ilcentaurorosso

Boof Head wrote: ...Spectra and Dyneema are the same thing...

Sorry, but I don't agree.
www.surfski.info/forum/1-general/5882-fi...er-cables.html#10304

"Dyneema
Developed and manufactured by Dutch DSM Dyneema is often confused with Spectra®, a similar material, whose performances are different. Dyneema® is a high modulus polyethylene fibre, with exceptional characteristics in terms of tenacity (weight for weight, is over ten times stronger than steel), modulus and abrasion resistance. This material, featured by a remarkable light-weight (shows a lower density than water), ensures an excellent resistance to chemicals and environmental agents, and superior durability. The only real drawback of this material is its limited resistance to temperature".

In addition some kind of Dyneema has high resistance vs. UV, es. DSK78 Ultra of GoddifrediMaffioli.

I have also compared original rudder lines of Epic and it look like DSK78 Ultra of 3mm. Same colour (dark grey, some construction, etc.). DSK78 Ultra has great characteristics as you can see (UV resistance, extremely low strecth, resistance @ 900 DaN (for 3mm size).
Last edit: 12 years 2 months ago by ilcentaurorosso.

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12 years 1 month ago #11297 by duncangroenewald
I thought I posted the following information previously - here it is again for those who are interested. In summary Spectra fibre and Dyneema fibre (well from the two manufacturers below anyway) are both gel spun polyethylene fibre with high strength, low stretch, high abrasion and UV resistance.

Honeywell Spectra Fibre
Spectra® fiber is one of the world's strongest and lightest fibers. A bright white polyethylene, it is, pound-for-pound, fifteen times stronger than steel, more durable than polyester and has a specific strength that is 40 percent greater than aramid fiber.

Spectra® fiber a polyethylene fiber that is produced using a patented gel-spinning process. Polyethylene is a remarkably durable plastic, and scientists at Honeywell have captured the tremendous natural strength in the molecular backbone of this everyday plastic to create one of the world's strongest and lightest fibers. The gel-spinning process and subsequent drawing steps allow Spectra® fiber to have a much higher melting temperature (150°C or 300°F) than standard polyethylene.

With outstanding toughness and extraordinary visco-elastic properties, Spectra® fiber can withstand high-load strain-rate velocities. Light enough to float, it also exhibits high resistance to chemicals, water, and ultraviolet light. It has excellent vibration damping, flex fatigue and internal fiber-friction characteristics, and Spectra® fiber's low dielectric constant makes it virtually transparent to radar.

Spectra® fiber is used in numerous high-performance applications, including police and military ballistic-resistant vests, helmets and armored vehicles, as well as sailcloth, fishing lines, marine cordage, lifting slings, and cut-resistant gloves and apparel. Honeywell also converts Spectra® fiber into the Spectra Shield® family of specialty composites for armor and other applications.

DMS Dyneema
Dyneema® is an UHMwPE fiber. DSM invented it 20 years ago and it's been in production since 1990. The fiber is incredibly versatile with virtually limitless applications. The fiber is manufactured by means of a gel-spinning process that combines extreme strength with incredible softness. So what are the properties that make this fiber so special?

High strength/low weight – Dyneema® is 15 times stronger than steel, and 40% stronger than aramids on a weight-for-weight basis.
Low specific gravity (0.97) - Dyneema® floats on water and is ideal for lightweight solutions.
Excellent chemical resistance - Dyneema® is chemically inert, and independent studies have confirmed that Dyneema® performs well in dry, wet, salty and humid conditions, as well as other situations where chemicals are present.
UV resistant – Products made with Dyneema® fiber show strong resistance to photo degradation when exposed to UV light. The high UV resistance of the fiber ensures continuing high performance.
Moisture resistant - Dyneema® fiber is hydrophobic. It resists water absorption, providing an extra level of protection and durability.
High durability - Dyneema® fiber can withstand the harshest environments for a longer time. This is due to its inherent strength, and its resistance to many damaging chemical agents..
Types of Dyneema®

Dyneema® derives its enormous strength from a proprietary gel-spinning process that results in extremely long, straight polymer chains. This exceptionally strong material is available in four major types.

Dyneema® fiber, an Ultra-High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMwPE)
Dyneema Purity®, a medical grade fiber
Dyneema® UD, a uni-directional sheet material for laminate composite construction
Ballistic sheet, made from (UHMWPE) tape for laminate composite construction
The following user(s) said Thank You: ilcentaurorosso

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12 years 1 month ago #11306 by cody91
I just recently purchased a new Stellar SR and I'm thinking about replacing the Dyneema Line with Q-Powerline Spectra to possibly get more responsiveness in the steering. Has anyone done this before and is willing to share their experiences. Both good and bad.

Thanks,

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12 years 1 month ago #11309 by Dicko
Stellar footplates have a tendency to let the line slip through the pedals, so you get a mushy feel to the steering. Sometimes you need to tie a knot, or some type of restrainer at the back of the pedal.
Just check the line isn't slipping before changing it.
Also the stellar weedless rudder makes the boats wander. Make sure you get the surf rudder, which is the same shape but with the post further back.
I'd try that before fiddling with the line.

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12 years 1 month ago #11310 by Kayaker Greg
Also the lower of the 3 holes in the Stellar foot pedals is too low creating a lot of opposing leverage when you press the pedal to turn. So much leverage that when one pedal go's forward, the high point of the bottom hole prevents the opposite pedal coming back which contributes to the stretch in the line. Once the line is tied to the top of the pedal or by some other method and the line no longer go's through the bottom hole in the pedal (which holds the pedal upright and forward) the line does not stretch as much and steering response is vastly improved. A couple of light elastic lines can hold the pedals upright without creating excess friction on the lines where they enter the ski like the stock set up does.

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12 years 1 month ago #11311 by red_pepper
I just converted my Stellar SE over to Q-Power Spectra line this evening. One of the nice things about this line (besides the strength and resistance to stretching) is the small diameter; you can run two loops through the pedal holes (I looped the line through the top hole to the middle hole, then back from the middle hole up to the top hole again, then through the middle and bottom holes to the front of the cockpit), effectively eliminating slip without having to tie a knot or create some kind of back plate. I took some photos I'll post (hopefully later tonight or tomorrow).

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12 years 1 month ago #11312 by Boof Head
Look forward to the pics. Are you still able to adjust leg length quickly with the extra looping?

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12 years 1 month ago #11313 by red_pepper
Yes, I can make fairly quick adjustments. The Q-Power Spectra line is fairly stiff, and tends to hold well.

I'm trying to add the photos, but for some reason I can seem to get them to attach. I'll keep working at it.
Attachments:

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12 years 1 month ago #11314 by red_pepper
Let's see if I can get another photo to attach.
Attachments:

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12 years 1 month ago #11315 by cdo
Hi,
I have also converted my Stellar to Power Q. Give me a week as I need to paddle it more to really comment but so far it appears like a great improvement in response compared to the Stellar's original. The old had some resistance to pull out of the rudder steering tubes the power Q definately had much less resistance. I went with the plastic line stopper method rather than loop the line through the pedals again....with my big feet this would just increase the wear! I will report back after paddling in large waves, but in the flat it feels more responsive.

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12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #11316 by duncangroenewald
Some comments for what they are worth:
  1. The line should slide freely through the holes in the pedals - DO NOT use a double loop or tie knots - this will make everything worse.
  2. Make sure the line in front of the pedals is somehow attached such that it is unable to slide from side to side. This is VERY IMPORTANT. If it can slide then some of the
    pedal movement with be transmitted via the front and not through the rudder ! You don't want this
  3. The line you are using looks way too thin - you should not be able to fit two loops through those holes. A 3 or 4mm pure spectra should provide a snug fit through those holes.
  4. The line you are using looks like it has a protective outer layer - which means the load bearing core is even thinner - which means more stretch.
    Check this by cutting a piece to see if there is a core of straight fibres. I would recommend you use a pure Spectra rope at least 3mm in diameter, and 4mm if you can fit it through the guides.
    The proper Spectra rope is tough AS so not much will wear it down. The protective outer layer also increases friction in the guides further increasing the mushy feeling.

Check the following:
  1. can you freely move the rudder if you disconnect the pedals and pull on the rope from the cockpit area ? If the line and rudder do not move freely then check the following:
  • Does the line move freely in the guides on both sides ? There should be no resistance at all. If not figure out what is preventing the line from sliding freely.
  • Does the rudder move freely, check it is not bent and that the trailing edge is not jamming against the hull - often happens if you have hit the sand or anything. Bend the rudder forward. The rudder should rotate freely at the slightest tap
  • Now that you have established that there is nothing affecting the rudder or the line in the guides check the following:
    • Attach the pedals, line etc.. Pull one of the pedals back to the rear of the boat. It should flop down to the rear - in fact both should - the line should only tension up when you press both pedals at the some time.
      If it springs back up then the line is not able to move freely through the holes in the pedal.
      I saw some comments about knots and double looping the line - you should not do this as the line should be able to slide freely through these holes. This is IMPORTANT - it is designed like this for a reason - otherwise the manufacturer would
      have put knots in or double loops. The correct Dyneema or Spectra line is very slippery and has no spring at all.
    • Finally you can check whether the bottom hole is aligned with the axis of the pedal hinge. If not move the hole lower until it is - the photo seems to show it being slightly higher than the centre line or axis of the hinge.
      Note that making the hole bigger won't work as you must move the point the line moves through so the top side of the hole has to move down to the axis line.


    My sea kayak had similar line to what seems to be in your photos and I replaced it with 3mm dyneema resulting in a much more direct feeling.
    There is no springiness feeling when pushing on both pedals at once with the Dyneema whereas before I could push both pedals forward and feel the stretch.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by duncangroenewald. Reason: Improve (?) the explanation

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    12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #11317 by cdo
    "Some comments for what they are worth:
    The line should slide freely through the holes in the pedals - DO NOT use a double loop or tie knots - this will make everything worse."

    Certainly not my experience: ...the line stoppers effectively achieve the same as a knot and improve the Stellar's steering by a great amount.


    "The line you are using looks way too thin - you should not be able to fit two loops through those holes. A 3 or 4mm pure spectra should provide a snug fit through those holes."

    Yet the original Stellar line is much thicker than 3 mm and as a result has more friction in the steering tubes?

    "The line you are using looks like it has a protective outer layer - which means the load bearing core is even thinner - which means more stretch."

    Not true. Spectra Q has a outer smooth core...stretch is not an issue with Q power.

    "The proper Spectra rope is tough AS so not much will wear it down."

    Mine was very heavily worn after months of use...as opposed to my Think Spectra Q lines which are perfect after years of use.

    "The protective outer layer also increases friction in the guides further increasing the mushy feeling."

    The outer protective layer is very smooth unlike the rough braid of the original. Actually reduced friction.
    Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by cdo.

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    12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #11318 by duncangroenewald
    Perhaps yours is a 32 braid spectra or something - it looks like a very fine braid compare to the stuff I use which is 6 braid. The one to avoid is the one with the polyethylene outer layer - it wears quite quickly - and adds nothing to the strength and has higher friction.

    In any event this type of self adjusting pedal arrangement should not need knots or line stoppers - something is not quite right if you need them.
    Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by duncangroenewald. Reason: correction

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    12 years 1 month ago #11319 by Kayaker Greg
    Yes! What is not right is the bottom hole in the pedal is too high! That's why the self adjusting pedal arrangement is not ideal on the Stellar. You don't need an engineering degree to see it for yourself when you have a Stellar.

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    12 years 1 month ago #11320 by Boof Head
    Has anybody drilled a new hole in their Stellar pedals? A drill-fill-drill would do the the job.

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    12 years 1 month ago #11572 by cdo
    My feedback on Spectra Q powerline on a Stellar SEL: A nice improvement from the original, Definately less stretch with better steering response and very light touch steering which I like. Another oservation is that the original line absorbs a surprising amount of water.....dry the line weights virtually nothing, wet it swells. The Power Q is a big improvement over the original Stellar line and from past experience will last longer.

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    11 years 8 months ago #13506 by Newbflat
    Sorry to dredge this old topic up but the most likely issue here is not the material its self but how the line in constructed and is treated before it goes on the spool.

    Both of these materials ..Spectra and Dyneema have less stretch than stainless wire. So the material is not the issue.

    Most lines with a surface treatment or cover have been pre 'stretched' and compacted before treatment or covered. Single braid Dyneema (as on my Steller SR) is a multi-strand hollow core line ...mine looks like 7/64 AmSteel by Samson. It has not been 'stretched' before being put on the spool. In reality what people feel in there ski's peddle is not technically stretching, its the braided line compressing under tension and elongating a little... something like a chinese finger trap. Once it has had a significant load put on it (something like 30% braking strength) it will not "stretch" anymore . It will also be a bit smaller in diameter and a bit stiffer as the braid has now been compacted. Its kind of like taking the Chinese finger trap and extending it without putting you finger in it. It stops and wont stretch any longer and is smaller. The issue is that Surfski manufactures don't pre stretch the line before installation. Also, the loads put on these lines in a ski are minimal and never get anywhere near close enough to load and set the Dyneema.

    Lines like Q-Power have been pre- stretched and are tighter/ harder and and a bit stiffer because of it. You will most likely get 90% of the performance of the Q-Power
    with Dyneema by getting some or using your existing and putting a load on it. Ideally something like 200+ kilos if its 3mm. But even just hanging on the line with your own body weight should do. After, it will be smaller, harder and won't stretch.
    This is common practice on the small boat sailing world.

    One nice advantage to the single braid Dyneema is that its very easy to splice if you don't like those ugly knots.



    Bill

    FENN Bluefin S
    FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
    Epic V8 double gen 2
    Lot and lots of DK rudders.


    Had:
    Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
    Stellar SR excel (gen2)
    Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
    Epic V10 Double (performance)
    Stellar SR (gen 1)
    V10 sport (gen 2)
    V10 (Gen 2)
    Beater SEL (gen 1)

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