New Epic rudders

I just bought a new V10 and it has the new metal shaft rudder fitted.
When test driving a V10 sport and a V12 I was disappointed in what I thought must have been flex and friction in the rudder system due to the usage of cord instead of stainless cable.
This was one of my major sticking points in choosing a boat as I just didn't like the detached feeling that the steering gave me due to lack of feedback, friction and and what felt like a time delay to anything happening with the original system.
I had resigned myself to possibly changing it out for a heavier stainless cable if I eventually bought one.

I had been holding out buying a boat until I had tested all of the models and had not yet got my hands on a V10.

As I drove past the store the other day I noticed that there was a new V10 in stock and arranged for a test drive and the most important thing was the new rudder.

No longer is there any friction in the system with the steering now giving instant feedback to your feet so that I can feel each paddle stroke push back a bit on each pedal.

What a revelation!
I was so impressed I bought the boat.

I figure that the carbon shaft must have stiction issues when loaded and that the metal shaft doesn't.
The carbon shaft ones all feel easy to move when not paddling them/ playing with them in the store, but on the water I thought that they suck.

So anybody that thinks their Epic boat's steering is not all it can be, get one of the new rudders!!!!!

Just got a v12 ultra (from Epic in Charleston). Awesome boat but it came with a 'weedless rudder'. Apparently this is their stock rudder but I find it pretty useless in the ocean and requested a surf (elliptical) rudder. They wont have any in for quite some time. I got a great rudder from Hein at Carbonology a while ago for my Red7 but the shaft is a few millimeters larger than the epic rudder shaft (and I'm no longer in that neck of the woods - and machining it to size is not an option).

Anyone knows if another manufacturer's (Think or Vajda?) will be a dead fit or where I can have one made up in East Coast (US).

Cheers
S.S.

Gday Rightarmbad

What model V10 did you get.(Club, Performance, Ultra or elite?)
Also the reason for choice (value, speed, durability, other).
When I am ready to upgrade I am considering either v10 performance or ultra but leaning more to performance.
Are there any speed/time comparisons on the different v10 models to read?

Thanks

Hey S.S.,

I'm on the west coast, but postage is no problem. I've made V12 rudders for other east coast folks. Drop me a line and we can talk about it some more.

Don
surfski at gmail.com

A bit more on the Epic rudders. I got a V12 about 10 months ago and it came with a carbon shaft which through my own stupidity I snapped on a coral head 2 months ago. Apparently (according to the local epic rep) a few of the carbon shafts were snapping without much force being applied and consequently my replacement rudder (again a surf rudder) came with a hollowed out metal shaft. As an aside, I didn't notice any difference in friction when loaded between the two shafts however no idea on the tolerances in the production process (or the ability of my feet to pick up on minor differences).

Of concern, after about 1 month of paddling with the new rudder I had a big off going into some large swell and despite being in deep water and nothing impacting the rudder, the shaft ended up being bent 5-10 degrees. During the off my feet got caught in the foot strap a bit so the rudder couldn't freely rotate to lessen the force however I found it concerning that a rudder could bend with only the force of the water and without hitting anything.

I relayed my concerns to Epic and this is the response:

"Your experience with the rudder is unfortunate, and we appreciate you bringing it to our attention. You'll be happy to hear we have changed to solid titanium shafts, however they are not immediately available and will take a little time to work their way through the system."

Kudos to Epic for the quick response and by the sound of it they are listening to the feedback they get. Anyone looking at replacing their Epic rudder, if you can wait, it might prove worthwhile.

While on the subject of rudders, I just received another replacement rudder (with metal shaft) and once again my stupidity kicked in and I ordered a universal rudder. I've found a rather large difference from the surf rudder when going downwind in large conditions (who would have thought) and in particular the stern of the ski tends to get thrown around by the waves just at the top of the wave prior to going down the face (ie when not much of the rudder is in the water). While I should have anticipated that, what did surprise me was how much quicker the rudder is in calm conditions. While this is a very subjective statement as I haven't been paddling it in calm conditions that much, yesterday I did a 10km out and back in about a 7 foot swell and ended up beating my best average speed by .2 Km/hr. Doesn't sound much however I've paddled this route at least 3-4 times a week for the last 18 months and to beat it by .2Km/hr on the first calm day with a universal rudder seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me. While paddling on the canal I also believe that I'm about .3-.4km/hr quicker with the universal. Has anyone else experienced similar or am I just have a "sweet spot" in paddling for the last week or so?

Apologies for the long post.

P.S. I'm waiting for the titanium shaft before getting a surf rudder.

I think your assessment is spot on. The swept back, and generally smaller, universal or weedless rudders will cause less drag and be faster in the flat . The elliptical surf rudders have better "bite" on a turn and, while slightly slower, will help keep you going the direction you want on big waves without broaching, assuming you do not oversteer.

I have difficulty understanding why all manufacturers do not offer elliptical surf rudders for surfskis that are made for the ocean (big waves).


Bill L

Geoff I' m with you on Epic's service. They've been fantastic. At the time I ordered the ski they only had the weedless rudder. Sort of a Hobsons Choice really: I was free to chose any rudder they had in stock. Their surf rudders are coming in January and I cant wait that long so am going with one of Don's rudders.

Funny thing about the weedless rudder is that it performs way better than the 'shark fin' rudders you get standard with some ski's. For some reason it didn't broach easily but it was very 'loose' on keeping a line.

Cheers

S.S.

I found the small weedless rudder a surprisingly lot faster.
I only bought one because the surf rudder was out of stock, but I am happy to have it, because if I ever do a flat water race, it's going on for sure.

I really wish that manufacturers would standardise shaft diameters and attachments.
A bit hard I know, especially with length, but from a paddler perspective,it would be nice.

The only time I have bent/ broken a rudder is in the surf zone, and even though you believe that it is deep enough, if you look at the angle the boat takes on going out over the wave and then project backwards, the rudder is probably in the sand, especially if you momentarily stop paddling and you are dragged a bit shoreline as you go over the top.
There is quite a shallow trough in front of the wave sometimes.

The carbon/glass rudder shafts for sure were simply not up to the task and didn't require hitting anything.

Maybe titanium is the answer.
Should be less corrosion problems than the old alloy ones.

Although I think the current hollow stainless ones are a good compromise with durability and not damaging the hull when struck.

As regards Epic layup options, black tips are certainly a good value point, but loose more in resale in a couple of years than a red tip.
The red tip feel surprisingly faster to me and I have the sneaking suspicion than boat weight may ultimately be more important in outright speed than tiny differences in hull shape.

So pick the hull you like the handling of and get the lightest if you are racing.
But make sure you loose your belly fat before you splash out on something light......

RAB, concur with regard to standardising rudder shafts/fittings etc. Would certainly provide so much more choice however from a commercial perspective, I'm not too sure how many would be willing to sign up to it.

Although I've broken a rudder shaft in the shallows before, when I bent the last one I was 2km to sea in about 50-100m of water.

Well, a bit over two weeks after getting my replacement epic rudder (steel shaft) I'm now in the market for yet another rudder! This is getting expensive!

Once again the rudder was bent when well away from shore in relatively deep water. A large wave broke on me and I ended up getting pushed backwards for a bit before the inevitable (at least for me) happened and I came off. Yet again the force of the water on the rudder was enough to bend the shaft. I've yet to try and straighten it out however due to the tolerances involved it needs to be extremely straight to avoid any excess friction (I couldn't manage to straighten out my other one). While we've been having some pretty big conditions here in Hawaii, I don't think it's something which a ski shouldn't be able to handle.

Has anyone else had any issues with bending the steel shaft? I presume some people have, as Epic are in the process of going to a titanium shaft.

They are actually quite easy to straighten.
You can tweak them a fair bit whilst still on the boat.

A vise and a careful hand supporting the blade and applying pressure where needed will usually work.

You should only have one radius to deal with right near the blade.
Clamp it in the vise and support the rudder with as much force as you can with your hands around the top where the shaft emerges and carefully bend it back.

Your only fear is cracking the the fibre metal connection and if you support it well enough, most of the force is borne by the quite strong and thick top flat part of the rudder.

They are much easier to bend than you first think once you have a go.

I suggest using my self centering mod so that the rudder is in a neutral position when the boat goes backwards, it may help stop the huge sideways force on a turned rudder.

Good luck.

Stupidly I tried straightening my first rudder without securing it in a vice first and consequently put a few more bends in it. I'll give the vice a go. Hopefully Epic will come out with the new shaft soon as I want to start some decent distance work in prep for the Molokai and I'm not that keen on conducting repairs while at sea!

Good suggestion regards the self centering mod. I remember reading that and thinking "I should give that a go". Probably would have saved some time and money!

Rightarmbad wrote: They are actually quite easy to straighten.
You can tweak them a fair bit whilst still on the boat.

Be VERY careful 'tweaking' them in the boat. I did exactly that & cracked the rudder tube/hull connection & it started leaking water.

much safer to take the rudder out & put it in a vice...

If/when Epic comes out with a stiffer rudder, I suspect we will start complaining of cracked hulls where the shaft would not yield under undue pressure

I personally would rather have to straighten my rudder shaft once in a while than to repair the boat... That said, both hull and shaft should be resonably strong to endure "normal" paddling (which does not involve things like shark attacks from behind or beach landings on rocks)...

As far as I know the Epic Rudder shafts have gone from hollow stainless steel > solid anodised aluminum > solid black glass >hollow stainless steel again , only the stainless ones could be "cold set" as you are discussing , I have no idea as to the properties of the Ti they are choosing.

When I removed the rudder to have a closer look, unfortunately there was a split in the two halves rendering it useless and while I may have been able to straighten it, I certainly wouldn't have been happy to paddle it in anything other than a canal. Being a bit annoyed that I had bent two rudders in about 3 weeks, I emailed Epic who were most apologetic and have sent another surf rudder to me free of charge.

There has been a lot of discussion regards customer support on other threads. Based on my experience with Epic, their's is faultless. They quickly responded to all my emails, admitted their product could be improved and had already instigated a design change and sent me another rudder free of charge. While it's been very frustrating not having my V12 due to bent rudders, it has made me feel a lot better knowing that Epic stands behind the product they sell.