Re: V10L Ultra vs Performance weight vs $

V10L Performance model should weigh about 32lbs (or less). Doubt any of us intermediate type paddlers could tell much difference, in a seaway, between Ultra and Performance models - 'til we carry it back to the car. Don't get me wrong though, the Ultra models are tops.
Do not overlook the V10Sport. Stable enough for an inspired dedicated novice and fast enough for all but the Elite level guys. If you doubt this statment, go try one out and see.
Mike.

James,

Last year I bought 2 glass V10 sports for my club. I looked at a lot of boats (Huki, Fenn and older spec skis) while deciding on the V10 sports. I bought the V10 sports because I figured they were, dollar for dollar, the best boats available for beginners.

Having paddled for a summer now, I would not buy one for myself. I'd buy either a Think Evo or V10. I wouldn't get a sport (too much butt wiggle - unless you get one of the Saffer models).

A quick check of the Epic website confirmed that they really are not making full Carbon boats. (Doubt any one is any more) The Ultra lay-up is Kevlar and Nomex. The Performance lay-up has Carbon in it, as well as fiberglass. The site also states the Performance lay-up is more durable. www.epickayaks.com/faqs/?nid=670

It is true that you can tell the difference between heavier glass and lighter carbon boats. But as a newbie, it is unlikely that you'll be able to tell any difference between the perforance and Ultra V10L models. Rather, there is no chance in hell that you'll be able to tell the difference.

I'm a beginner and I love the sport. I live for our Tuesday and Thursday night races. I've had some really great people like Alan Carlson and Jeff Raymond (from Think Kayak) give me some awesome paddling tips. Because of those tips, I regularily beat people in much lighter boats simply because of technique (and my stroke isn't very good).

If it were me, I'd buy the Performance model over the Ultra. The weight is an issue, but not the biggest. I think its outweighed by the extra durability. Also you can get different coloured decks on the Performance model - helps you be seen by intoxicated power boaters.

If you really want to excell, spend the money you save on some paddling techniques and coaching. Two friends who I've beat regularily this past summer are going to do just that. I can't because of scheduling. Next summer they will stomp me. Also put a GPS unit (Garmin 305 seems to be the one of choice) on your christmas list, I have.

Cheers
Sean

PS -I'd also spend some of the money you save on your wife/girlfriend. Because if she ever reads this string of comments and you haven't got her anything... Well it was nice knowing you.

Cheers Guys

so good to know if you want to do the reasearch on a product you can get honest answers.

I am going to try out the performance model and see the difference.

I really liked the lay up of the V10L as it really hugged me nicely, letting the boat move around on cross swell and never feelig like it was going to get away.

Oh and dont worry about the girlfriend she's negotiated well in advance to ensure she gets the best deal!

Great sport great people

Come visit Byron Bay for a great paddle some time.

James

If you are looking at buying a GPS, I like the look of the Garmin cycling models. I currently use a GPS 76 sailing model and really like the large display and navigation screen, but I would like the download features and heart rate option of the forerunner 305. The edge cycling models seem to have all the features I need (would like), including a bigger display than the forerunner series.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions.

Stuart

would like the download features and heart rate option of the forerunner 305. The edge cycling models seem to have all the features I need (would like), including a bigger display than the forerunner series.

The edge has a couple of drawbacks... the one is that there is no strap so you have to find a way to mount the unit on your ski. For most people this is an issue - the Forerunner 305 is easy to attach, I use the strap and attach it to the bungies on the front of the cockpit of my ski (works on Mako 6, V10).

The second, more important drawback is that the usb port on the Edge is on the unit itself - unless you take care to fill the port with silicon grease or something similar, the port will corrode very quickly due to electrolytic action and you'll find yourself with a unit that can't communicate with the PC - this from experience with the 301. The Forerunner 305 has a cradle to which it connects via 4 brass contacts which don't seem to suffer from corrosion. The USB cable plugs into the cradle and away you go.

So I'd recommend the Forerunner 305 every time.

Thanks Rob, useful to know. I guess I will stay with the 76 I have for now. I have tried the forerunner and it really didn't serve the purpose that I was after. Maybe they will fix the problem with the USB connection in future on the Edge. I velcro my 76 on and it stays put (even in SA), so mounting shoul not be too much of a problem.

Stuart

Hi James and other Forum Posters,

A few points gathered from a few posts . . .

Epic do make a pure carbon fibre boat . . . it is called the Elite and is made from unidirectional pre-preg carbon fibre and weighs in at 8.25kgs or less - see the banner at the top of surfski.info if you are interested in winning one and getting flown to Dubai to race it in the Shamaal.

The V10S is made with some leeway for wider torsos, but they all ship (if they didn't check with your agent) with inserts that allow for a snug fit. I have a reasonably small butt, and hence slide around a lot in a V10S, which I don't do in a V10 or V10L, but once the inserts are in, viola - no more sliding or butt wiggling as it was called in the post.

No Epic surfski models ship with coloured decks . . . they come with a white deck and the only colour is in the seam which identifies the grade of ski (Blue = Glass, Black = Performance, Red = Ultra). The Elite carbon boats are made sans gel coat and as such are black.

I have paddled all models and all grades of Epic skis and I have to disagree with the comments that said you wouldn't feel the difference between a glass ski and an Ultra! I am by no means a good paddler and I can feel the weight difference as clear as day . . . less weigh, more speed! I have actually heard one of our club members commenting that he had to upgrade to a carbon as he was training twice as hard as other paddlers, but because the slackers had a carbon, they could easily stay on his wake!

Save the money and buy some toys???? I say spend it and buy the biggest, fastest toy on the block - a V10L Ultra . . . or if the girlfriend is already taken care of, why not push out the boat and get an Elite? :o

Food for thought:

In my opinion, it very well might depend on conditions and how skilled you paddle as to whether or not you'll go faster in a boat that is 9 lbs (4 kg) lighter. For example, on flatwater, there is not really any difference in cruising speed - there can't be - as the approximate 5% increased skin drag (180 lb/85 kg paddler and 32 lb / 14 kg ski) doesn't translate to anything close to 5% decreased speed, it's likely less than 1% which should be hardly perceptible.

On big downwind runs, a very skilled paddler should be able to catch the runs easily whatever he/she paddles because catching them is more skill dependent and less paddler acceleration dependent. Plus, the better that you're going, the less you're slowing down as you're surfing wave to wave and maintaining a good high speed. 4 kg of ski weight probably doesn't matter here.

On protected waters where all you really have are small high frequency wind waves, you're never really paddling uphill or surfing but more or less plowing through them at a constant speed. Not much in the way of any accelerations upwind or downwind. Upwind, the overall drag is much higher with wind on the body. 4 kg of ski Weight probably doesn't matter here either.

In those conditions where the water is choppy, some swells or wind waves are coming through, the surfing is good but it requires you to work hard to accelerate onto the waves over and over again, then I could see that an extra 4 kg might be noticable. Or, if surfing skills are not that advanced but fitness is good and you are accelerating alot to keep speed, then an extra 4 kg might slow you down a bit.

If you're in conditions where you are literally paddling "uphill" and downhill on ocean swell, then like in cycling, weight should matter and 4 kg extra might slow you down.

Also, I find that the really lightweight skis like the Ultra and vac bagged Mako 6, while not "tippier", are considerably twitchier especially on flatter ocean days when the water rolls you a bit. On glass flat water, there is less difference in feel, and when wind waves are 1-2' / 50 cm or larger, there is less difference in feel between the two.

I race a vac bagged 6 and like it. Would I trade it for a 4 kg heavier model? No. But, If I were on a budget I'd get a performance model and the extras like a nice light paddle, Garmin 305, leash, etc as opposed to an Ultra and nothing else.