Old V10 Elite stability question VRS K1 kayaks

lillelok wrote: There's a great Danish site with a stability categorization of K1s. It's in Danish, but the catagorization is pretty self-explaining: www.kajakinfo.dk/Overblik-over-100-kapka...es-sv%c3%a6rhedsgrad.

My experience with surfskis and K1s is that high performance surfskis generally are a lot more stable than K1s. I paddle a Carbonology Atom, which is among the tippiest surfskis, but way more stable than a racing K1 like e.g. the Zedtech Carrera (rated 3 on a 1-10 stability scale). I used to own the old V10L which I would compare to a touring racing kayak like the Viper 51 or Citius 51, in stability.

Stable and relatively fast entry level K1s, a bit tippier than the V10 though, would for instance be the Nelo Classic or the Citius 44.

If that site's comparisons are correct, I would personally rate an elite ski around a 3-4 on stability then. I've paddled some of those 3-4 level boats, and they feel about the same as an elite ski.

I've also paddled one boat rated as 2 on that list. That was a bit of a Laurel and Hardy show for all spectators.

jagter wrote:
If that site's comparisons are correct, I would personally rate an elite ski around a 3-4 on stability then. I've paddled some of those 3-4 level boats, and they feel about the same as an elite ski.

I've also paddled one boat rated as 2 on that list. That was a bit of a Laurel and Hardy show for all spectators.

Yes, I've been paddling stability 6-8 K1s this year and didn't have a hope in hell of getting anywhere in, or remounting an old-version V10L. However I did OK in an SES (on flatwater), probably comparable to the Tor?

Spacehopper wrote:

Yes, I've been paddling stability 6-8 K1s this year and didn't have a hope in hell of getting anywhere in, or remounting an old-version V10L. However I did OK in an SES (on flatwater), probably comparable to the Tor?

I reckon that sounds about right. On flat water I'm solid on an elite ski. No risk of falling out at all. Same on a 3-4 stability K1. On an higher level K1 I can't sit still on flat water without falling out or at least wobbling like crazy.

Very different story though on the ocean. Then an elite ski is useless to me. I'll fall out at the sight of a wave.

The difference between a K1 and a ski is:
On a K1 you always pull the K1 upright with your legs or stomach. The racing canoe is round and will fall over if you don't keep it upright. Put a Vajda on the water. It tilts to either side.
On a surfski, if you are always trying to keep the ski upright you are fighting the movement of the ski and the sea all the time! It takes a large amount of energy and causes you mental stress and fatigue!
So the secret is not to fight to keep the ski upright but to rely on its shape for it to keep you upright.
I always taught "use your stomach to keep the canoe upright" but now have to teach "relax your stomach on the sea, and let the boat follow the sea". Don't fight the sea, it doesn't get tired, the conditions don't change like on a river.
Hope this makes sense.

"relax your stomach on the sea, and let the boat follow the sea". Don't fight the sea, it doesn't get tired, the conditions don't change like on a river."

Well, I don't know . . . even if you rely on a surfski's secondary stability to stay upright, a paddler still needs to engage core ("stomach") muscles from the catch onward to propel the blade through the water. Not really "relax[ing] your stomach . . . ."

Elardus wrote: So the secret is not to fight to keep the ski upright but to rely on its shape for it to keep you upright.

I know what you are trying to say, and I agree many paddlers would do better to relax their hips in as far as don't be too worried about letting the boat rock a little while paddling.

I paddled some K2 races earlier this year with a buddy and we didn't need to think about stability...but just recently I jumped in a K2 with a training buddy and noticed he was uneasy when the K2 started to rock a little while I was completely at ease trusting the boat and our timing to keep us upright.

For me I believe it's as a result of lots of paddling (at least 4-5 days a week) so I have become very in tune with what the boat is doing under me.

Also training in uncomfortable conditions regularly improves your confidence which in turn results in you relaxing a bit more each time you face the same conditions.

Many years ago when I started out I picked up a training tip from Jim Walker of www.mykayakcoach.com/ . He suggested at the end of a session, dropping your paddle, then replicating the paddling motion with your arms. I did this for a couple of minutes at the end of sessions for a year or so and it made a huge difference to my balance. (Note, I also did this close to shore for obvious reasons ;) )

dropping your paddle, then replicating the paddling motion with your arms

When a 1st time paddler sits in a K1 and spends 15 min or more just paddling around with his arms and uses various strokes eg both arms together or one at a time he realizes that his balance is quite good!
He then stands thigh deep in the water and practices paddling with a paddle until he can do it with closed eyes.
This shows him when he paddles and swims that it is incorrect strokes with his paddle that makes him swim not his balance. After his first lesson he goes back to paddling just with his hands.
He quickly gains confidence because balance and strokes are separate issues in his mind,

"even if you rely on a surfski's secondary stability to stay upright, a paddler still needs to engage core ("stomach") muscles from the catch onward to propel the blade through the water. Not really "relax[ing] your stomach"

Too true. Maybe a better word would have been to relax your obliques and concentrate on your core to go forward.

I can sit in a #2 K1 for 10 -15 mins no problems now but a lilly dipping paddle stroke is all I can do.
I spent many hours in the pool and lake practicing that last year.

I can remount my old V10 Elite too but it's REALLY tough.

Looks like I would like to try a 3-4 K1.
But if it's not faster than my V10 I wonder why I would do it?

Maybe to work up to a #2 K1 and really rock.

In the waves I'm useless in my old V10. little ripples are the max for me to handle.
Weird, my buddies brand new V10 is SO stable for me compared to the old lighter one.
Hi feels like a 4 and mine like a 2.5 or 3.
And now his new V8 feels like an untippable barge.

I have an older v10l and i have a K1 aswell.im quick in the Epic but am terrible in the k1.just the higher seating position i cant get used to.i also rekon if ya stick with any craft long enough you will get used to it .