How strong are ski's really

Not naming any ski company.
Are ski's really designed to be at sea in conditions?

I go out in different brands of ski's and while powering out through what I would call small seas (1m to 1.5m) I will jump the waves. Not totally airbourne obviously, Im not that good.
The thing is the ski's sound like there breaking on impact (regardless on a flat landing or an edged landing). They all end up having soft spots under the seat.
Or are skis just fancy looking boats that can only really handle flat to 1 to 2 foot swell?
Not just talking about down wind where Impact isn't really an issue.

The ski's have been the glass models with glass foam core glass construction, which is supposed to be tough.
I dont think Im rough but for a craft that is called an ocean going craft they seam very weak.

Opinions

Gnome

Here's a little something that may help you.
Surfskis are designed first and foremost for large ocean swells. I know, I know… they are called SURFskis, but the surf refers to ocean-swells. Surely, we could have called them swell skis, but seriously?!
Surfskis in waves is a different matter and requires construction - some companies refer to them as "surf layout" etc…

Take it from my experience as a boat builder: if you are going to surf your surfski in waves, you need a different layout (it needs to be "beefed" up in a few places.

I'd like to speak for all companies, but I can't because I don't know. I will tell you that Twogood Kayaks out of Hawaii has a layout for surfing that I have trued and tried - in very big waves without the smallest of cracks on my surf-layout.

Compared to a racing ski at 22 pounds, you will be looking at something like 35 pounds, but worry-free - and you get the guarantee from surf damage from the company.

Other companies may (or may not) do this - but I am sure you will find others that have a similar layout.

Pointer:
When launching past a wave, NOSE dive.

I have had 'soft spots' in a number of big brand ocean ski , predominantly the hybrid construction (where the hull is made of multiple layers of different material. I was advised by a boat builder that there was delamination, that is the glue binding the layers together basically failed and the layers come apart thus creating soft spots. These are not always due to paddling in surf conditions or jumping over oncoming swell but by simply carrying your craft to and from the car. As the ski rests on your shoulder, it creates too much pressure and soft spots start to appear over time.

I am not loyal or disloyal to any brand but I dare say that I was very disappointed after forking out $2600 and $2900 respectively that the ski was falling apart after a few months and not being sea worthy anymore. Sure they wer repaired or replaced under warranty, but the worrying thing is that like many of us, I paddle at time quite a few kms offshore and some pretty big swell or downwind conditions. I sometime feels scary wehn you feel the ski flexing or pulsating after hitting a nasty wave... something for the ski manufacturers to think about. I know that the top athlete are sponsored and have many skis at their disposal... I don't!

Yea I agree about the sponsored paddlers have all the joy.
Us suckers get the joy to fund the top end.
So with glass core glass construction it appears to me a light weight cloth, core, light weight cloth may not be a good mix. After all the core can squash like a sponge.
So once again is there a construction we should use instead of glass core glass option?
Also I had a Kevlar Core Kevlar made boat and that piece of weak shinny epoxy used to deform sitting in the hangers in the shed and I even used wide webbing tape. Just bumping it on the thick foam car racks left dents and I mean bump not crunch.
I don't have much faith in what is supposed to be a sea worthy craft.
Gnome.

Actually, you will notice more de-lamination of layers with the really light construction layout. That's because boat builders know the customer is spending a lot of extra money for a really really light boat. Since the boat needs to be light, boat builders remove excess epoxy (the glue) and leave the boat with the minimum.
That minimum is sometimes too little.

Personally, I'd rather remove the 3 pounds of hardware for adjustable steering, and have an extra pound of epoxy for a little more safety while in the deepest blue ocean.

After paddling this morning in the short steep wind generated waves, I thought of this post. As I paddled over the crest of each wave and slammed down the other side I cringed every time. I tend to start paddling a little slower or at an angle just so I don't land with a thump on the other side of every wave. I haven't seen any evidence of damage to the ski which I paddle a lot, but it does make me worry.

I don't know if the answer is paddle slower, buy a tougher ski (mine is a Kevlar layup), paddle at an angle to the waves, or just go hard and pray !

It's very hard to know how hard you can push it without breaking a ski. It's also frustrating to have to back off just so you don't risk your ski.

No doubt, a really light ski is a lot of fun to paddle (and carry mind you) but seriously:
This is just like any other sports where a training set of wheels at 800 dollars go a long way, and a 2400 set of racing wheels for RACE DAY.

Aside from making you faster, you will have a lot less stress when using a stronger/heavier boat. On race day, take your race ski, and watch how well you do at each acceleration, each swell, and especially on long distance.

The builder / The Seller doesn't want to upset you. You walked into the store asking for a light surfski - He/She will happily sell you a new one every season - because that's exactly what a racing surfski is designed for. Of course, more comes into the equation: your weight, how aggressive you are, the conditions in which you take your ski etc…

So, do yourself a favor:
Clean that racing ski, store it for race day.
Go to the store and pick up a 1500 dollar ski for your training / abuse.

Yea but thats the concern.
Its the Basic glass layup that is deforming in the surf.

Also had the more expensive Kevlar ski, did it even worse.

Remember Kevlar is not ridgid. it has more flex. Add that to the core being compresive. This is not good, in my eyes.
The glass boat has the same core so it is less likely to deform but it still does.
My next sea ski will be 18kg plus. Spec ski's never deformed on me like these ocean ski's do.
I can't afford to keep buying new skis every year, it's rediculous.

Based on what I have taken in the surf in Hawaii, the strongest ski will be:
Foam core - a sandwich construction having fiberglass / Foam core / fiberglass, PLUS a reinforcement of the cockpit area (merely a small amount of added fiberglass in that area). Such a ski should be no more than 28 pounds. That would be the "perfect" training ski - at least that I can recommend.

We would go into 4-12 foot waves (remember, in Hawaii, we count waves from the back) and said surfski still lasted 3+ years before it "got borrowed by a complete stranger".

I beg to differ, manufacturers have a duty to make skis that can safely be paddled in ocean conditions, failing which do not call then ocean racing skis altogether. I have been put off by the weak and disposable hulls on the market nowadays supposedly in the name of competivity that I have been pondering switching to a spec ski. When You are 1 km offshore on 2-3m swell and 25 Knot wind, one cannot be picky as to which wave is going to give the ski a second chance...

Just to be clear though:
-- You can buy what ever surfski you want (even a 55 pound ocean kayak if that pleases you)
-- Manufacturers could improve on so many levels
-- In years of paddling the deep blue oceans, I have never seen a single surfski get damaged by ocean swells
-- I have seen many motor boats sink in the ocean (while surfskis made it fine)
-- I have seen surfski damages beyond recognition with WAVES - in the surf
-- Surfski usually get damaged by being a little too close to rocks (first) and by waves (second) and by being mis-handled (third)
-- Spec ski is clearly an alternative, but they are quite a bit heavier than 28 pounds (see above)

Good to see a bit of hearty discussion!!!

I would be happy to save the precious light ski for race day and paddle to training ski on all other occasions. Problem is that you probably need to train on the same type of ski. Doesn't seem to be helpful to train on a spec ski and race a carbon ocean ski. You would never learn how to handle it.

My intention is to have two skis that are close in design but potentially have different layups. While they might perform differently and have slightly different handling characteristics, they would at least be similar.

Given the choice of any layup and regardless of cost, which would you choose in the rougher conditions where there is a lot of bashing into the wind and swell. Fiberglass, Kevlar, Carbon ???

It also probably isn't possible to ask the manufacturer to strengthen a ski. This would have to be after market and would probably void your warranty.

Damn internet!

Good ol' Made in the USA - so take advantage of it if you can.
Call Twogood Kayaks and he will make sure that you have exactly the layup you need for your intended purpose.

I don't know where anyone stands in their paddling, balancing skills, nor do I know what type of ocean you'd be paddling in. I will merely assume that you will eventually paddle the Molokai.

FIRST SKI (training):
Surf Layup
Fiberglass, foam core, Fiberglass
This will give you a strong layup, and easy to repair when you accidentally hit a rock.
Back in the days, I would have said the Chalupski Surfski, but looks like Bob had to change the names around a bit.
For your training boat, you can raise the seat (with foam).

SECOND SURFSKI (race day and once a week training):
Carbon foam core layup.
It will be very light, will still somewhat similar to your training ski, but yes: it will be different.

The advantage of doing the above is:
You will have two skis that will last at least 3 years.
3 years = $5000 spent

Try this with 3 carbon skis in 3 years, and you will see that you are reaching the $12000 mark.

Ask around… surely, there has to be SOME other manufacturer in the world who doesn't send their stuff to Asia and back.

Bashing up wind into ocean swells (not breaking shore breaks), and money not being too much of an issue, I would still go with Fiberglass / foam core / Fiberglass. You will accomplish lightweight, but still retain a boat that will be super stiff & light.

Surfing rough ocean swells, I would use the same boat.

Race day, I would go with carbon sandwich - merely for super light weight.

Speaking of training though…
Yes, I would recommend training with a training boat - stronger, a little heavier, but nice peace of mind when you are alone with mother big blue.

There are plenty of other options… one that I would like to mention.
Training basics dictate that you will at least train for the following:
- Paddling Technique
- Stability in the rough
- Endurance (your ticker and all)
- Reading the ocean / Surfing swells

One way to train for all the above is to get yourself in a K1 (flat water boat).
It will be tippier than any surfski and will keep you in check from all the above (except reading the ocean / surfing swells). It's super cheap: $1000 gets you one.

Think of the 1000's of dollars you would be saving by having a coach (the boat) remind you every single time your paddle isn't planted well.

Cheers (and here comes 3 boats in the garage)
=== your wife will love you, but first buy her diamonds, then go for your boats ===


Damn internet!
Damn French COFFEE!

Bonjour Ludovic! very impressed by the quality of this debate... long time bug bear of mine as I am still in the quest for an all rounder craft... my wife thinks of me as a hoarder and she as a chucker! If I turn up with a spec, K1 and carbon ski, I would be better off seeking alternative accommodation for the future... I already have enough toys in my garage ... road, mountain bike, camping, stunt kites, power tools and other bits and pieces which will be useful in the next century or so...

I started in a sea kayak about 10 years ago, then a hybrid spec/ocean ski, then a Honcho Guevara, then quickly migrated through a succession of top to intermediate ocean skis.

You are spot on about the fiberglass... heavy, stable and unbreakable. Once I switched to lighter hybrid composite skis (15kg), this is when I started to tear my hair out and the boat builder became my best buddy friend! I tought him how to paddle a Fenn Millenium and he got up to to top 50 on the Oz paddling circuit in many races!

Soft spots developed anywhere a bit of pressure is applied to the hull, notably around where you would normally rest the ski on your hips or shouders, nasty ones around the seat area! The ski then begins to flex over big oncoming swell. One ski was refunded back after the boat builder said the ski has to be rebuilt practically after only 6 months! Another was about 3 months old and was first replaced the second one patched up on many occasions... I gave up!

Now why am i waffling on about this...when all I am really after is :

1. a craft that can handle 2-3m swell, 1-1.5 surf, 20-30 knot wind downwind or upwind

2. improve my paddling technique
3. tighten my belt by an extra 1-2 notches
4. feel safe when its just me, Big Blue and the mutton birds swirling into the swell looking for fish

I was out there last saturday in 2-2.5m NE and 25 knot NE and nothing beats the feeling of catching the sweet spot of the mountain of water that just hit you and makes you surf for 10-15m or more. There was not one out there... I would sometimes lose sight of land when in the trough of the swell and it's at this precise moment that I need to feel safe. I know, you may say that it is all in the mind... you need to feel one with the elements! Well, when I feel my craft pulsate or flex... it's not a good look! The manufacturer will not send an IRB to apologise for the inconvenience and give me a ride back home... will they? should they? he has already nakmed my hard earned cash, sponsored manay a top athlete, distributed branded giveaways at numerous races... does he/she care?!

As you say so well, you need to replace the ski's every so often... too often in my mind! There needs to be some serious debate and social responsibility here, NOT market share debate, who wins what race, which brand is in the top 10. Enough said!

A bon entendu...

Jean

If the manufacturers all start saying "anything under 15kg has had its durability compromised in favor of performance so you are warned" people are still going to buy them.

Its already obvious that is the case, people know they are buying a fragile boat, can anyone claim they thought a 10kg boat was intended to be used 4 times a week in all conditions?

Lighter = fragile. Other sports such as cycling and K1 have weight limits to stop the creep towards ultra fragile single race bikes/boats.
Should the sport be minimum weight limited? Or should people be left to use their own free will and risk vs return judgment in how light to go?

Surfskis now have a "history" - and with several technology advancements, I would think that they would be lighter and stronger than they used to. The present is, however, quite different.

1993 -
Basic surfskis came in at 33 pounds. They were glass, okay on strength.
Surf Lay up were 36 pounds. They were GUARANTEED against breakage in the surf.
Foam Core and glass lay up were 25 pounds or less (that's less than 11.34 kilos) and they were so strong that I could walk the entire DECK bare feet and still paddle it.

2013 -
A very light layup is like 27.5 pounds. Granted, it's not the lightest, but that's what you can expect when you ask for the average very light surfski at $4000 - on a scale.
Is it strong? NO
Is it different from super light other sports? NO
Should it be different? YES - and there lies the problem.

The 2013 surfski weights 2.5 pounds more than the 1993 surfski and happens to last a whole lot less time in the water. The waves haven't gotten bigger. I still taught 3 years of lessons with the same 24 pounds surfski, and I still trained with it, and paddle it on many Hawaii Kai runs - and no, I won't even start telling you how many times I took it surfing on numerous spots in Hawaii.

The point is, history shows us that a light surfski doesn't have to be fragile, but history tells us that we should accept it because we accept it for every other sports. Other sports say light is weak, light cannot be strong. Let me just remind people that it doesn't have to be this way.

Quick note:
Do you really think that adding 3 pounds of hardware to all new skis was done to make you a better paddler? Do you think this was done for you, the paddler?
Heck no - this was done to make it easier for the store to sell you a boat. You want it 3 pounds lighter, dish out the extra 1000 dollars. What the heck am I talking about?
The steering hardware now weight a whopping 3+ pounds than it did in 1993. Go back to the old ways (on the steering) and place those 3 pounds in material I need for safety, strength, and peace of mind.

1993 - 2013 is basically now behind us. Let's hope that 2014 proves better.

For the people who can afford it, there should be 17 pounds skis that should last only one Molokai crossing. Our 2013 boats weighing 27.5 pounds should not break apart the way they are.

Manufacturers of Today: Please take note. We are getting a little upset, and coming from a boat manufacturer, I believe I have done my part. Are YOU now considering doing yours?

tourfr wrote: Foam Core and glass lay up were 25 pounds or less (that's less than 11.34 kilos) and they were so strong that I could walk the entire DECK bare feet and still paddle it.

Was that a solid foam core like a surfboard?

Do you really think that adding 3 pounds of hardware to all new skis was done to make you a better paddler? Do you think this was done for you, the paddler?
Heck no - this was done to make it easier for the store to sell you a boat.

Adjustment is good, it not only helps the shop keep "one size fits all" stock, but also makes it easier to resell because you arent limited to buyers the same dimensions and posture preference as yourself. And also makes the ski swappable between friends. And lets beginners experiment with what works best for them.

You could of course pull the rails and footboard out and replace with a sheathed foam block and pedals, or even glass in a footboard which might halve the weight and reduce cockpit water volume. But really its too much effort.

There really are a couple of things that need to be bourn in mind.
Firstly, a lot of people seem to be ignoring the 'strength' that a stringer adds to a boat. It is not there just for buoyancy. The entire ski's strength is based on beam theory; the core material acts as a beam keeping the inner and outer layer of materials away from each other and thereby adding rigidity and strength. and possibly even more importantly the stringer keeps the deck and the hull away from each other, adding a considerable amount of strength.
So find out if the ski you want 1) has a stringer, and 2)what material it is made from.
a 20mm piece of polystyrene will not add that much strength and will become waterlogged and even weaker over time.

Also different materials have different strengths:
Although Kevlar flexes, it has great 'point' strength. It will hold up well to a sharp impact; heck its used in bullet proof vests.
Carbon is really rigid, but has less point strength

So, the ultimate training ski from my perspective is not limited to 1 material.
Firstly, I would use an infusion core/layup, I like the idea of the same application of resin going through the core and holding the skins together, and I have not seen delamination on an infused boat.
It would be predominantly glass, as the cost needs to be reasonable, but would have some Kevlar and carbon strategically placed where that materials strengths are required.
And it would most definitely have a full length stringer, and not made of polystyrene.
would it be the cheapest, or lightest boat out there? no.
But as many have said, you want something that you will be safe in.