Old vs new designs: Epic V8 & V10?

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9 years 4 months ago #18546 by tony h
Bias arguments seem to pervade most threads - perhaps we need to remind ourselves that we are all biased on every level..........just varying degrees & we quickly realise some definately more than others!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

Even extensive personal GPS data is biased.

The best advice to me is still to try as many ski's as you can & make the decision for yourself.

For example: my doubles partner from molokai recently wanted to update his 5yr old v10 sport as he has improved substantially...........short story is he tried all the updated models, equivalent other brand models & ended up back in his old v10 sport as his legs went dead in all the other newer ski's.
So newer is not always better from an individual perspective.

Interestingly he cruises along at 12.5km.hr plus in this old ski on flat water which I think is very impressive........I struggle along on his wash in my new v14 :-)

ski's - McGregor C/R // Nelo 560L // Epic: 1st/2nd/3rdG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8 // Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G // Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G // Carbonology: vault, atom, flash //hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #18548 by 1xsculler
12.5 kph = 7.75 mph and that's smok'in as far as I'm concerned. I too persevere in my V14, about 5 mi./day, because I want to specifically work on my balance for when I go to Maui where I will rent a V10 Sport for much bigger conditions than I have at home. I can maintain about 6.5 mph (with a tailwind) on a good day. I get beaten by V6s, V8s and almost every thing else and I'm working as hard as I can during races 6.5 mi. to 8 mi. in length. I can balance the 14 just fine in moderate conditions so it's merely my strength and technique that limit me to the back of the pack. I'm firmly establishing my slowness by paddling the fastest ski and still bringing up the rear.

My very valid excuse is that I will turn 70 next month. I started paddling my 14 daily about 4 months ago and I had almost no kayak experience before that so I'm very, very happy with my progress.

I doubt very much that I will ever get much faster as B-days will exert their control over other factors.

current skis: SES Ultra. sculling boats: Fluidesign Lwt, Wintech, Empacher.
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by 1xsculler. Reason: error

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9 years 4 months ago #18549 by nell
When manufacturers compare one of their skis speeds to another of their other models, I suspect that the entirety of what they are comparing is the computed drag of the underwater hull based on a limited range of paddler weights. I don't think that they are measuring the above water part of the hull nor the deck which continuously interact with the water and the water / air interface as waves move aft along the hull.

Some skis have fast hulls and slow decks, and some v.v. Some will go well on flatwater, or into the wind, or downwind, or on all points.

I understand the underwater hull drag measurements of the new V10 are very slightly better than the old V10 - scuppers not included. But, the old V10 has a really sleek and narrow bow, a narrower overall width?, and I suspect it's as good or maybe a hair faster when punching through waves.

Occasionally, I paddle a V12, and while it's fast on flatwater, my suspicion is that it's not as fast as the V10's upwind or downwind on short wavelength waves because the bow is a bit bulbous and "plows" water a little bit - just a gut feeling I have but I'd have no accurate way to measure this.

The older Think Uno is a great example of a ski that probably has about the least amount of total boat drag of any due to its low volume, sleek deck, and minimal hull flare above the waterline. I suspect, though, that its pure underwater hull drag was no better than many other elite skis, though. This is a great fast ski to paddle - Daryl Remmler has a good eye for designing the "total ski."

I don't think we're anywhere close to being able to accurately and objectively compare the speed of the "total ski". But, when we can, the data set will vary according to the paddler's speed, paddler's weight, and the water conditions. So, for the next long while, I think we're going to be stuck with the manufacturers basic underwater drag calcs, our "eye" for what looks sleek and fast, and others' very subjective input like gps data files. Erik

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9 years 4 months ago #18550 by Fath2o
Epic V8 performance one year old $2200 2 hours from Cambell, CA.
Charlie Ph.916 212-1002 from craigslist.

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9 years 4 months ago #18551 by seamonkey
Fath2o, I'm on it.

I've already made arrangements for a test paddle. Thanks for turning up the ad.

Rainer Lang

Seeking balance

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #18553 by zachhandler
Sea monkey - the only way you can really screw this up is to buy both the new AND old design, and then paddle them one after the other, day after day, until you are convinced that one of them is the inferior boat and therefore a waste of money. Just buy one or the other and you will never know the difference.

If you do end up with an older sport, be aware that there were two versions, one with a wide and one with a narrow bucket. Either works fine, but most people, even wide hipped folks, glue some foam padding on the sides of the wide bucket if they are spending a lot of time getting sloshed around in waves.

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by zachhandler.

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9 years 4 months ago #18555 by Fath2o
Zachhandler, got a good laugh out of that one. Your absolutely right!
Seamonkey, just realize your going from a relatively fast narrow boat to a quite wide
but extremely stable boat. I reckon the V8 is a like a roto molded sit on top that is lighter, faster and performs better downwind. The catch will be much wider. After paddling an Elite and V10, It's hard for me to adjust to a wide catch, it's probably more mental than physical. You have to compromise somewhere. I'm paddling my EVO now after tearing my rotator on a downwind on the V10. At 53 I have to put my ego aside and just paddle what works. You might be pretty comfortable in the V10s after paddling the Blade, but, you can't go wrong with the V8 if stability is the goal. Good luck.

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9 years 4 months ago #18556 by Selkie
I don't think it is a simple as some people think. All well and good if you are paddling in one direction with wind and waves behind you. In recent local races that involved multi directions e.g. around an island, the V8 faired well beating many of the longer skis and all the performance sea kayaks. At the recent Oban Race in Scotland, Ivan Lawler deliberately paddled the the V8 to prove this point. He won the race beating all the longer skis convincingly.

The Ocean is a moving environment and can have a lot to say about which boat is best for what.

As for wide catch on the V8? I recently paddled the old V10 Sport and decided to wait for the New model as the catch seemed wider than the V8 with the cutaways.

We paddled both the new and the old V8 side by side. We could feel no difference on speed. I actually prefer the slightly rocker on the old V8 in bigger conditions.Prob due to my sea kayak background...I wear a lap belt and can edge to old V8 right over to carve down the wave.

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9 years 4 months ago #18557 by [email protected]
Not sure if it's been covered in this thread but for me, stability has more effect on my overall speed than fundamental hull speed.

Put bluntly, I'm much faster in rough water on a more stable boat than on a faster, tippy boat.

So, relating back to the original question, the new V10 being significantly more stable (aka "easier to paddle") is much more important than the theoretical increase in hull speed revealed by the computer models.

What I'm lead to believe is that the new V10 has the best of both worlds. I know that it's significantly more stable because I had the chance to paddle the ski in Mauritius earlier this year - but I only got paddle it a couple of times. I was injured and unfit at the time and I had none of my regular marks against whom I could compare, so I couldn't draw any conclusions about its speed.

But (aside from the positive comments that I've seen on the forum and elsewhere) I'm finally getting my sticky paws onto one hopefully in a couple of weeks time.... Can't wait - and given that it's the beginning of our racing season, we'll have plenty of opportunity to draw our own conclusions! (My paddling buddy Dale and I will have the only two new V10s in Cape Town and we're hoping to give a few people some shocks after last year).

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 4 months ago #18558 by Kayaker Greg
Yes! Shorter boats and with rocker can go better when things get messy in my experience. The longer boats are not better in everything, in fact I feel they are only better in one limited condition, where the sea is directly from behind and the waves a certain size, but the percentage of time that most of us are in those perfect conditions is limited. Personally I prefer the shorter ski's, 6.1-6.2m. I just find they work better for me in most conditions that I paddle in, until it gets into the bigger stuff from directly from behind, then the length of the 6.45m skis does help, which are the conditions that everyone would favour for ultimate downwind conditions, but the reality for most of us is that those conditions are not what we experience every day. In fact my favourite craft for really messy stuff isn't a ski at all, but a 5.2m sea kayak, and it surfs real well and is ultimate fun (despite what my ski friends think).

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9 years 3 months ago #18621 by seamonkey
I appreciate the guidance and support.

I drove to Sacramento, did a test paddle and bought the V8.

This one has a single open Venturi, grab handles inside the bucket, and a beveled rear deck. The previous owner added a kelp guard to the weedless rudder, threw in a calf leash and a car topping red flag.

So far I've paddled it about 15 miles and really like it! After adjusting the footplate and my paddle length I found the "ON Button" and played around sprinting. She's really fast! For me, an excellent craft to learn on; stability = speed.

Thanks for helping a newbie find a great boat.

Rainer Lang

Seeking balance

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9 years 3 months ago #18662 by Shackleton
I own an old style V8, I have owned an old style V10S. I have paddled the new V10S for about 10 miles total in demos. The new V10S is slightly faster but I personally think that this is due to more initial stability.
In other words, less time and effort are spent keeping the boat upright so more effort is spent going forward.
However, the new V10S was not significantly faster than the older one or the V8.
I have found that the boats from V8 through V12, which I have tried all, are only about .2-.5mph faster as you go up. This makes no diference when paddling for fun or fitness but makes a big difference when racing because 2 tenths of a mile an hour makes the difference between first and fifth or less.
Even the old V8 will easily go over 7.5 mph and cruise over 6mph. As you get skinnier speed goes up incrementaly but so does tippiness. So in the end the more stable boat might be better than the skinnier boats.

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9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #18663 by Shackleton
Selkie:
A lap belt...what happens if you tip over?
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by Shackleton.

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9 years 3 months ago #18664 by Kocho

Shackleton wrote: Selkie:
A lap belt...what happens if you tip over?


If you can, you roll-up (Eskimo roll), which is a lot faster than a remount. Plus, you can brace a lot more aggressively with a belt, so you don't flip over in the first place. If you do end up upside down and can't roll back, unclip yourself, then do a remount - these belts are quick release designs.

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9 years 3 months ago #18665 by Shackleton
Interesting. I guess I haven't thought too much about leaning or rolling surf skis the way you would with kayaks. I have only been paddling SS for one season but have used kayaks for many years in all kinds of conditions. I guess I assumed if I leaned a SS it would just tip over. I may have to try playing with it more when the water warms up.

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9 years 3 months ago #18669 by Selkie
Kocho said it all. As a long time sea kayaker, wanted to use those skills on a SS. The lap belt gives better connection and stability in confused conditions. I find skis surprisingly easy to roll. But mostly the connection allows more control on the waves.

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The following user(s) said Thank You: Kocho

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9 years 3 months ago #18670 by zachhandler
This is getting away from the OPs question, but the tippier the boat the easier to roll. An olympic k1 with a lap belt is effortless to roll. A wide flat whitewater playboat is hard to roll.

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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9 years 3 months ago #18672 by Kocho

Selkie wrote: Kocho said it all. As a long time sea kayaker, wanted to use those skills on a SS. The lap belt gives better connection and stability in confused conditions. I find skis surprisingly easy to roll. But mostly the connection allows more control on the waves.


Sorry to take it yet further off topic, but do you mind sharing where you attached your belt and thigh straps? I'm thinking of doing that but the ski is so fragile in most places that I'm afraid it might be too much work to reinforce etc. On the other hand, the area around the bucket seems quite sturdy, so if attached properly it might hold up....

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9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #18675 by Selkie
[quote="Kocho" Sorry to take it yet further off topic, but do you mind sharing where you attached your belt and thigh straps? I'm thinking of doing that but the ski is so fragile in most places that I'm afraid it might be too much work to reinforce etc. On the other hand, the area around the bucket seems quite sturdy, so if attached properly it might hold up....[/quote]

Perhaps a kind Admin can take my first post and the subsequent posts
about a lap belt and create a new thread for this as I have info, photos and perhaps a ski rolling video to share :)

I place the lap strap about 6 inches above the knee. I find this gives me a good balance of contact and still allowing leg drive. I used a quality dive weight belt cut in to 2. Each half is attached to the flat deck surface at the side of the cockpit. The 2" webbing is fixed under SS deck plate and fastened using wellnuts with neoprene sleeves. This allows some give so save strain on the fittings and makes it water tight. The other benefit is that they are removable.

I think the new V8 handles are in the right place so that a belt can be attached directly to them.

I have used this system for over 25 years. It works really well. The benefits over a sit in cockpit is that if you do have to bail out, you simply remount and paddle away. No swamped cockpit to pump out whist trying to balance in conditions that tipped you over in the 1st place.




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Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by Selkie.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kocho

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9 years 3 months ago #18676 by zachhandler
Selkie - I did something similar with my K1. The issue I had was that if I set the strap loose enough to allow good leg drive, if made rolling tricky. If I anticipated the capsize and spread my knees I could hold myself in, but If I was slow to do so, i would get twisted in the cockpit to where I would have to wet exit. So it wasnt a reliable system in rough water.

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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