Old vs new designs: Epic V8 & V10?

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #18523 by seamonkey
Hi, I've only briefly paddled the new Epic V8 V10 Sport. As I understand it, these boats are more stable and perhaps faster than their original designs. Both felt nice and sporty, stable and fast enough.

Since a few of the used older Epics do show up at the $1800-$2400 price range (which is the limit of my budget), are the new models THAT much better? I'm sure at my level, mostly fitness paddling, any model would be a good choice. Is it worth the extra money to get the latest design?

Has anyone paddled or owned both old and new designs and could give me guidance?

Thanks!

Rainer Lang

Seeking balance
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by seamonkey. Reason: Mis spelled subject line

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9 years 4 months ago #18525 by Ranga
Yes I have paddled both, old and new. The old V8 is not that much different in the hull, the rocker profile was reduced, it does make a difference in speed but not that much, most of the changes were to the deck.

As for the V10 Sport the new one is quite different, definitely faster, but the old is still a very nice ski, I raced it last season and did quite well in it.

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9 years 4 months ago #18527 by Fath2o
Seamonkey, If your looking at the V10s for sale in grover beach on craigslist, it is the old model in performance layup. She says it's like brand new. If you don't mind the weight, you might want to make an offer. I did, need a heavier/stronger boat for extreme downcoasters. There is also a kayak center "Synergy" for sale in huntington beach on craigslist. Looks like killer deal. Don't know layup/weight. Paddled synergy
a couple times. Was stable and fast for for me. Would have bought one if seat back didn't bother me and cables didn't rub my calfs raw (have very large calfs,like cantaloupes). Large volume boat though and probably better for bigger paddler.
Good luck and test drive before you buy.

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #18528 by Kocho
One thing to bear in mind is that the outgoing (second generation?) of the V10 Sport was significantly lighter in the Performance layup than the current one is. As much as 5-8lb difference. My old V10 Sport was below 30lb, probably 28 or so. My new V10 (not sport, but I hear they are similar) is 35 lb, both in the Performance layup. The old one felt light and stiff, the new one feels heavy and stiff... So, for the price of a used old one you get almost the weight of a new one in the Ultra layup...

I think the cutouts on the new V10 sport and the new drain would be the most significant upgrades, unless they also changed the seat and foot well (I like the seat of the new V10 better than the seat of the old V10 Sport, plus I got more leg and foot room, which is important for me - I was maxing out the old V10 Sport in leg and foot room)
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by Kocho.

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9 years 4 months ago #18529 by PaddleFaster
I have the older V10 Sport and V8 models in the Performance layups. I have a few thousand miles paddled in the two of these boats.

When people say the newer models are "faster" than the older models, I can't see how the increase in speed could be very significant. I often think that in many cases, "new boat enthusiasm" is more responsible for the claimed speed increase, than a new hull design.

A tenth per KPH/MPH maybe, but squeezing out even a single real world tenth of an KPH/MPH increase from a hull with similar dimensions is not an easy thing to do. Especially since the newer boats are said to be "heavier".

People here have been debating all week how heavier boats are slower. If that is indeed true it would make it even more difficult to believe there is any significant speed increase on the newer models.

For me personally, until I actually see someone post long term average GPS numbers to back it up, those claims remain unproven.

I am not saying it isn't true that the new boats are "faster", I am just saying that if they are, the increase is probably negligible and to date no one has really offered any real data to support the theory.

The older Sport and V8 in Performance layup are SUPER durable and tons of fun to paddle. Using a bung/plug attached to the leash point via cord works fine for me when it comes to managing cockpit water.

I think the newer V8 looks nicer, but the older V8 still has a futuristic look to it that gets a lot of attention. I like the looks of the my Sport as it sits.

Also as a final consideration...

If you purchased a clean older model now and decided that you wanted to get the new model next season when you have a few more bucks saved up, you could probably sell your older model ski then, for exactly or very close to, what you pay for it this season.

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9 years 4 months ago #18530 by seamonkey
I appreciate all the feedback.

In my case, being a solo fitness paddler, 1/10 of a second per mile makes very little difference to me. A ski that I can apply power in, and keep upright will be way faster than the Blade that I used to have.

Truth be told; a price difference of -$900-$1100 for a ski that I'll enjoy anyway is a real consideration. I haven't any knowledge about the Horizon, and it would be a heck of a round trip to check it out.

I appreciate light weight craft, coming form the sea kayak world where a 52lb. kayak is considered light, skis are so much more friendly to load and unload from the rack. An interesting point that the older lay-ups are in some cases lighter than the new generations. To me that's another selling point for buying used.

I'm definitely checking the used market for my next ski!

Thank you for the information

Rainer Lang

Seeking balance

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9 years 4 months ago #18531 by PaddleFaster
Seamonkey

I am a fitness paddler myself. To give you and idea of speed differences between the older V8 and V10 Sport I have taken 4 days of my Garmin GPS numbers from the just about the same time of year in the years that I purchased the boats.

The conditions were similar and all paddled in the exact same inner bay area.

First numbers are the V8 in 2011 a few months after I purchased her. I was 51 years of age at the time for reference.

Second numbers are the Sport in 2012 a few months after I purchased her at age 52.



As you can see, I averaged about four tenths faster in the Sport overall. But the top speeds are similar.

That is why I say, I don't see the newer models being significantly faster than the older ones.

If there is only a four tenths average difference between boats of two significantly different dimensions, I cannot see how boats of the same dimensions, with minimal hull changes, can be much different.

Also, one has to consider the fact that the paddles noted from the V8 were of greater length than the ones in the Sport, so the overall average at the same distance may have been even lower than the four tenths noted.

Good luck

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9 years 4 months ago #18532 by seamonkey
PaddleFaster, that's awesome data collection!

I'm also 52 years young; and hoping to reduce my body weight (currently at 185lbs), and improve my overall fitness level.

I'm really coming to the conclusion that a previous model V8 will suite me well. Price point and performance.

Thanks for the great information.

Rainer Lang

Seeking balance

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9 years 4 months ago #18533 by Ranga
So According to your reasoning, there is no need to improve any design, for instance sprint kayaks. There is a set of design regulations that have to be adhered to so how can one be faster than the other? the obvious thing would be to design one boat and leave it at that for the next 10 years until the specifications change! Likewise I suppose you drive a Model T Ford, that was cutting edge at the time.

What you don't understand is the concept of incremental changes, a formula one car 30 years ago is as fast as a common hot hatch today, this did not happen overnight, designers spend many hours improving things in small ways.

This is also the case with skis. Your GPS results are also quite interesting, maybe you upgraded too soon as the top speeds are the same, this implies you are not able to put your power down at higher speed, this would usually be to being unstable. The Sport is longer and narrower therefore faster, which you are correct in this respect, longer being faster.

If you were into racing, how much faster do you need to be to beat the next guy? In sprinting a fraction of a second is enough, a minute over 10km is a long way, but the speed differential over a short distance in the same craft is minimal, so Faster does not have to be a huge increase.

I know the hull speeds of the new skis and they are faster, in theory and on paper, but only if you can paddle them. The V14 is much faster than the V8 but upside down swimming in the V14 is slower than upright and paddling in the V8!

At the end of the day you want to be comfortable and have fun, otherwise what is the point. You will not go wrong with a good second hand Epic.

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9 years 4 months ago #18534 by PaddleFaster
Ranga, I think you may be misunderstanding my attempt to address the actual thread topic.

The comments were made from a fitness paddling perspective and my point simply was that the speed increase between the new models and the old models V8 and V10 Sport is in my opinion negligible in that regard.

Those are the only boats that were inquired about.

The original poster seamonkey, was asking if the new models of "V8 and V10 Sport" were so much faster that they warranted paying a 30% premium in price to get one. As I stated, he will be using the boat for fitness paddling not for racing.

My other point is that people have stated that in their opinion the new boats are "faster" than the previous models, but no one has yet actually shown any data here that supports that statement.

And yes, I do understand incremental changes a great deal having worked in the motorcycle industry in the past. Again, my statements were based on the threads actual topic and the context in which the questions were asked.

And no, I didn't change boats too fast and was quite comfortable in the Sport as soon as I started paddling it.

Feel free to show clear cut documentation that the new V8 and V10 Sport are significantly faster than previous models. I would love more than anything to see it.

Seamonkey is similar to my age, is going to use the boat for the exact use that I do, fitness paddling , and is coming from a sea kayaking background as I did and is actually within 2 lbs of my body weight.

My post was an attempt to help him make a decision and I hope I did so.

If the way I did it bothers you, my apologies.

As a final comment: if a local racer states to me that he can only hit a bit over 8 mph in his V10 carbon layup in the flats and I am hitting mid 7's in my Performance V8 and Sport while fitness paddling, at my age, I'm fine with that...
The following user(s) said Thank You: seamonkey

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9 years 4 months ago #18535 by Rob1
In relation to the new v10 being faster then the previous model, I have to disagree. I currently paddle the older v10, a v14 and a vajda hawx. I have being paddling for the past 15 years and I don't have any issues regarding stability. I had the chance to paddle the new v10 for a few days not that long ago. Compared to the previous v10 the new model is a lot more stable, in fact it's the most stable ski I have paddled. However I found the new v10 to be slightly slower then the older model. Thanks Rob

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9 years 4 months ago #18536 by Ranga
I see you never read my first response!, answering the question raised, this however obliviously was not good enough so I expounded a bit more.

As for hull speed ALL new Epics are faster than the replacement model, whether you can paddle them faster is not the boats problem, I have it a good authority that this is fact.

Why ask such a question if you are not interested in speed, just buy the ski you enjoy?

By the way I have been paddling at an elite level for 25 years. I can easily get to 10mph on my new V10 on a sprint and cruse at around the 8mph , I have a performance model and will go quicker on an Elite.

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9 years 4 months ago #18537 by AR_convert
And Ranga being an Epic Dealer and relative of one of the Epic owners has a pretty good idea of the design characteristics of Epic skis. And I can vouch for him being quite a strong downwind paddler too ;)

Always looking for the next boat :)

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9 years 4 months ago #18538 by Kocho
We should mention that a good part of the claimed increases in speeds in the new models over the older ones is due to the bailer being able to close flush. Source: Epic's web site and Greg Barton's writings about how the new baileys decrease or increase drag.

As for hard facts - that's the only way I will believe something is faster. I will never blindly trust second-hand information based on anonymous "good authority" sources. Especially, if those sources and their repeaters appear to have an "agenda" to promote said "faster" boats fortdheir own interests (even if this is not actually the case).

In fact, people like Wesley, who have spent countless hours of GPS-ing their runs still get it wrong now and then (and, for someone on the outside, it seems pretty obvious, despite claims to the contrary by them, change their biases when they become affiliated with a ski manufacturer like Stellar). It is unavoidable and a conflict of interest - people are biased in thir beliefs! As for their assessments after "many years of experience", they sometimes appear off-base too. Several people I know, including myself, came to the opposite conclusion regarding two particular skis compared to what Wesley's impressions were. So do I trust him or my own observations? A lot of it is paddler-dependent! Please note, this is not a personal attack against Wesley or anyone in particular - just facts and observations, perhaps biased (!) a bit from my recent negative (and very real, believe me, you have it on good authority here) encounters with people's "honest" opinions, "promises", and actions in some totally unrelated to paddling fields...

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9 years 4 months ago #18540 by PaddleFaster
Ranga, I guess from the perspective of someone such as myself that is basically new to skis and that has only paddled them for the past few years, it gets hard to read through the hype of new boats and find information that is actually factual.

When researching buying a ski, about the only information a person can find on them is on this website. There are no magazines that do fair and unbiased surfski testing. There are no apples to apples comparisons of skis by an unbiased third party.

Wesley used to attempt to do that on his "surfski racing" site. But since he is now a dealer, the term unbiased can no longer be associated with his opinion and I think he understands why that is true.

About the only other place where ski information can be found is here on this site. Much of that information is based on new releases followed by claims of them being, faster, stronger, more stable and lighter in weight.

Sometimes those claims hold up, but more often then not, they prove to be hype and the second hand ski market becomes quickly filled with buyers disappointments.

So it has to be expected that those types of claims are occasionally questioned.

I think it's great that you are as prolific a paddler as you are and I am actually inspired by those such as yourself. I am also appreciative of the efforts of companies such as Epic in regards to bringing the sport to those of us that normally would have not ever had another real ski option.

The truth of the matter is, for every person that is of your skill level, there are twenty that have come into the sport the past few years that are closer to mine.

Many of use newcomers to the sport base our ski buying purchases pretty much solely on what we read here on this forum.

Many of us are not afforded the option to actually test paddle boats before we buy them.

When we do research to buy them, the only criteria we have to make our decision is on the comments made in this forum about how a certain boat is faster, stronger, more stable and lighter in weight.

An accurate definition of exactly how much faster, stronger, more stable and lighter in weight a boat is, becomes very significant to those of us that make our boat buying decisions solely on that information.

I apologize for my long-winded responses. I am simply trying to do my best to clearly explain my sentiments, and opinions, as well as my reasoning behind them.

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9 years 4 months ago #18541 by fredrik
Paddlefaster
Wesley is no longer a stellar dealer as of some months ago. I assume we safely can start respecting his integrity these days :-)

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9 years 4 months ago #18542 by Kocho
My prediction - when he becomes a Think dealer, we will find out that the Uno is indeed faster than the SES, which was the fastest and most stable ski on the water as we all should know. Now, with the Uno Max almost as fast but a lot more stable, so in fact faster for some ;). OK - that's a joke, no disrespect, I really appreciate what folks like Wesley and others here are doing, even when biased - as long as they can substantiate their claims in a meaningful way. We're not some top secret cartel - if you know something useful, share it rather than allude then disappear from the thread or avoid a direct answer...

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #18543 by seamonkey
Long winded, here goes:

Reading through this thread, I'm really interested to hear the many differing opinions. I certainly didn't want to start a thread that created discord or animosity among the users of this forum.

I am simply a paddler who enjoys sea kayaking & rock gardening, waveski surfing, and some white water. After working with my last ski for about a year, and not fully bonding with it (read aggravated, disappointed), I wanted something stable and fast enough to be fun. I worked with a balance ball, and built a rocking balance trainer. Apparently I'm kind of balance challenged, and I just want to paddle without concentrating on staying upright. The upside is I'm really good at remounting a ski.

Given my limited budget and lack of ski specific knowledge; I've had to rely on the information that I could glean from sites like this. I also understand that every manufacturer who updates their designs, does so for the purpose of improving their product. Previous models are state of the art for their time. I rarely find myself needing to be at the cutting edge, especially given the cost of being there.

There are many used skis on Craigslist, from Elite to Novice to skis that are no longer in production. Applying the "Goldilocks Principle" by serially purchasing, paddling and selling skis that were either too heavy, too slow, too unstable, or didn't fit me comfortably, would be a whole activity in itself.

I'm hoping to get to the ski that's "just right". It would be a different story if I were in a Club environment, or peer group, where I could try out lots of skis, compare and contrast what works for me, and make an informed decision when a good deal shows up.

I'm leaning strongly toward a used Epic V8 at this point.

Thanks (steps off the soapbox)

Rainer Lang

Seeking balance
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by seamonkey.

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #18544 by fredrik
Before you give up your current surfski i strongly suggest that you try a different paddle. A parallel blade could make your ski feel much more stable. A larger blade as well. No doubt a new paddle is cheaper than a new boat. Also do not underestimate the value of improved technique. bad technique will make you unstable. Better technique takes more time than testing a new paddle. Eg if you try a gamma style paddle and then a braca 4 style paddle befoe ending the session with a parallel blade you may be surprised. Thereafter ols or new model may be a old question
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by fredrik.

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9 years 4 months ago #18545 by PaddleFaster
Fredrik, thanks for that info. I didn't know that was the case.I always appreciated Wesley's efforts. His used boat area also seems to move boats pretty well when you wish to sell them.

Kocho
, cartel? :laugh: I have been waiting to read a news article about some guy trying to smuggle a few pounds of pot into Miami in the hull of his ski.

seamonkey, if you do get an older V8 and need a plug for the Venturi, let me know and I will mail one out to you in CA. I have a bag full of them lying around somewhere.

Also, when you look at used ones, check the rudder pedals where the shaft runs through them. Some of the boats such as mine, had a slightly abrasive fiberglass shaft that would wear the carbon pedal's mounts over time.

If you did need to change them, the pedals aren't expensive, are easy to replace and I have a part number from Mcmaster.com for a perfect fit stainless steel shaft if the information is needed.

As far as the bantering. I will accept the responsibility for instigating the situation and will refrain from doing so any further. Apologies.

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