Heart rate while racing?

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9 years 5 months ago #16175 by [email protected]
I never watch my HR while racing but...

It is interesting to review the track afterwards: if my HR starts dropping towards the end of the race I figure I'm not fit; if I can push it up for the last five mins then I'm good.

What I found really interesting though was that in choppy water on a tippy boat I can't get my HR up to the same level that I can in the same conditions on a more stable boat - which to me is another indication that tippy makes for less ability (for me) to go at 100%.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 5 months ago #16180 by [email protected]
Interesting (to me) HR situation.

When the wind isn't blowing, we often chase an 88ton catamaran tourist boat as it goes out 4km taking tourists to view seals at an island near Hout Bay here in Cape Town.

I used to think it was an easy option - after all you're just riding the wake.

But here's my latest HR trace from yesterday. We chased Nauticat out to the island, then chased her back in again. Then we figured that we should "get some exercise" and we tapped back out again to the island. On paddling around the island we saw that Nauticat had unexpectedly done another trip... We waited and then rode her wake back to the harbour.

Here's the thing - my HR during the "soft" wake riding was actually far higher than the unassisted paddling section when we went out to the island the second time. So, we're scoring in a couple of ways when we chase Nauticat:
  • It's a hell of a lot more fun than grinding away on the flat
  • It's great practise for catching and staying on small runs
  • And... it's clearly great training, given how high my HR was getting!

Here's the trace:

Garmin connect - chasing Nauticat

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 5 months ago #16193 by zachhandler
This is somewhat of an aside, but I am sure you will find it interesting:

Have you ever noticed that at a high heart rate paddling (say 5 beats below max) is not nearly as painful as that same heart rate would be while running, biking, or cross country skiing? Paddling at that effort you could likely speak a short phrase to a fellow paddler if needed. Running at that effort is a lung-searing pain and it is impossible to even put together two syllables.

This puzzled me for years. I finally came across some studies that explained this anomaly. When doing a predominantly upper body excise like paddling, all the contraction of core and chest muscles increase the hydrostatic pressure within the thoracic cavity. This impedes the return of low pressure venous blood to the right side of the heart. The heart can't fill completely, so each heart beat ejects less blood. The heart compensates by increasing the heart rate. Like driving down the highway in 4th gear instead of 5th.

The other point you should keep in mind is that the formulas to predict max heart rate are worthless, and comparing your heart rate to another persons is meaningless. On my university running team, I was the too runner along with another guy. We ran all the same times in workouts and in races. His resting heart rate was in the 50s and mine was in the 30s. His max was in the 200s and mine was 180. Neither of us was fitter than the other. I simply had a large volume slow heart and he had a small fast one.

I'm too lazy to look up the studies again. But I recall they used hand bikes ergometers vs to standard leg bike ergometers and estimated that at any given rate of total body energy expenditure, the upper body exercise would be accompanied by a 15 beat increase in heart rate.

Hope all this is of interest.

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy
The following user(s) said Thank You: Watto

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9 years 5 months ago #16195 by EK Sydney
I measure my heart rate on all my exercise activities. As you mention I found it really interesting that an hour on a stand up board going at 6kmh on flat water had my heart rate going at the same rate as 70 minutes on the ski at 10.7kmh, and only just below the same for a 5km run at 12kmh.
But, downwind on the ski in some decent conditions, the rate jumps 20bpm. I think it's something like the difference between your heart rate reading a newspapper, compared to your heart rate reading a newspaper with someone pointing a gun at you.

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9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #16197 by Kayaker Greg
What you are forgetting is that the heart rate and oxygen supply are not the only factors in going fast on a ski or any other activity. The muscles need the ability to utilise more than just oxygen supplied by the heart for fuel. When paddling downwind or on a boat wake the muscles have an easier time of it and the heart rate can get closer to its limit. When the muscles are working harder if you have not trained your body to be efficient to utilising other fuel sources available then the heart rate and oxygen supply may not be the limiting factor and your heart rate may well be lower.
For those that train by feel and take no effort to train the body to utilise all the available energy systems effectively, you are missing out.
Last edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Kayaker Greg.

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9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #16201 by Red
Replied by Red on topic Re: Heart rate while racing?
Interesting topic, with some equally interesting views.

I understand the desire to compare HR, just like comparing how much you can bench press, but, as said in previous posts, the comparison is irrelevant. There are many variables why your HR may be less or more than someone else. Do not fall into this trap of comparison.

HR can be used as a good indicator of intensity, with important data that can be used for comparison between the exercise sessions of the athlete (not another athlete). Having used a HR monitor for many years as an athlete and coach, I quickly realised that using the monitor made training very complex and clinical in training situations that had many variables. We could never replicate conditions experienced in the lab where these conditions could be controlled.

Programs were being spruiked that had multiple levels of HR zones that an athlete must adhere to so as to train a specific fitness parameter, often within 10-15bpm, a very narrow band. It looked good and sold lots of books, but very hard to implement effectively. Finally, we realised that if you knew just one HR number, and could honestly evaluate your own exertion level, the HR monitor became an effective tool. If you know your anaerobic threshold for the specific activity you do, then your HR monitor can be a great training and racing aid.

Nothing compares to actually training hard. Periodisation is necessary, recovery is essential, HR data is good. But when it comes down to it, if you are not pushing the limits of your fitness, skill, or strength in training, improvements will come slowly or not at all. Don't be afraid of hitting the wall sometimes, that's where the good stuff happens, right when you think you can't hold on for another second, and you do. Don't let an electronic watch tell you when you have had enough.
Last edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Red.
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9 years 5 months ago #16211 by MarkS
Replied by MarkS on topic Re: Heart rate while racing?
Any U.S. dealers for the Kayak Cadence Monitor? How fast can I get one shipped to the U.S. if not?

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9 years 5 months ago #16212 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re: Heart rate while racing?

MarkS wrote: Any U.S. dealers for the Kayak Cadence Monitor? How fast can I get one shipped to the U.S. if not?


If you don't have a local dealer, I can ship if that helps.

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9 years 5 months ago #16214 by MarkS
Replied by MarkS on topic Re: Heart rate while racing?
Thanks Stew. I will search locally today and get back with you.

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9 years 5 months ago #16220 by Kiwibruce
If you want know how to train to peak for races there is no better method than by the great kiwi coach Arthur Lydiard, his methods were
responsible for the great kiwi runners of the 60's,70's and 80's. Ian Ferguson also trained by his methods, he is one of the worlds greatest kayakers with 4 olympic golds and 1 silver 5 world championship medals.
It dosn't make any difference if you are a runner or a kayaker the principles of training are the same, have a look at this link if you are interested in how to get fit.

lydiardfoundation.org/training.aspx

Not a heart rate monitor to be seen :whistle:

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9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #16224 by Kayaker Greg
Nothing wrong with the Lydiard methods, you are widening the discussion, but it could be noted that Ian Ferguson won those Gold medals without a Wing paddle too, perhaps we should ditch those?

And the man who took his place as National kayak coach Gordon Walker says the following....

"It is the best thing I have ever bought for training with in terms of value for money. It's a speedo for your bike, run or kayak. It's a heart rate monitor. It can map. It stores many, many training sessions and can be uploaded to all sorts of training software. They are absolutely awesome tools."

www.sportzhub.com/site/index.php?option=...nt&task=view&id=8443

Times move on, methods and tools improve, Wing paddles, GPS, heartrate monitors, power metres, cadence metres, lactate tests, V02 testing, we can choose to use them or not, your choice to use them or not. In Lydiard's time it was time over distance with a stop watch. Bit harder to get an accurate consistent gage on the water with currents, wind and sea state for any given day's workout with so many variables with a stop watch. If all you do is train on a flat windless K1 course a stop watch might be all you need. Where I paddle I have currents, wind and waves, different every day. This is where heartrate and GPS helps to build a decent database for seeing if what you are doing is smart training or not.
Last edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Kayaker Greg.

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9 years 5 months ago #16225 by rambo
Replied by rambo on topic Re: Heart rate while racing?
I thought the title of this thread was " Heart rate while racing?"

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9 years 5 months ago #16253 by Kiwibruce
HRM's probably do have some value but you should not let them dictate your training. Lydiard was very big on "running how you feel" or if you feel worn out, "have a rest day " a HRM will only tell you part of the story. Technology may have advanced but we are stuck with the same old bodies.

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9 years 5 months ago #16277 by kevin brunette
I generally track only my distance and speed while racing, perhaps only looking at my heart rate afterwards. My heart rate is up in conditions in which my level of stability allows me to paddle at full pace, which typically means flatter water or moderate downwind.
I think watching my heart rate limits my approach to racing. A heart rate has little bearing on how I am feeling, the way I am paddling and does not take race tactics into account. I don’t want it to reduce my effort because my heart rate monitor is bleeping a warning message.
When pacing a course, I work out a comfortable, but hard pace for the distance. Any time above this rapidly depletes my energy. I know I can manage 80 percent all day, but can last only for a few minutes at 90 percent plus before I have to back off. The start and finish are quite different, during which I am definitely in the red zone.
Every tactical change forces an adjustment in effort, and therefore my heart rate. I try to make the most of my energy, knowing each time I accelerate or paddle too fast, I dig into my resources much more quickly. I am more conscious of my overall average heart rate than an instantaneous measurement.

FENN Bluefin, XT, Swordfish S
Author and publisher at South Easter Communications of books in the SURFSKI series, aimed at recreational to advanced paddlers. Look at the Facebook page Surfski know-how and visit www.lulu.com/spotlight/southeastercommunications

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9 years 5 months ago #16289 by owenw
Replied by owenw on topic Re: Heart rate while racing?
I use my HR monitor when racing for 2 reasons; 1st to ensure I don't blow up by going too hard early, and 2nd to ensure I don't kill myself (literally) by simply overtaxing my heart. At my age my "theoretical" HR Max is about 155bpm, however I find that in my usual races (10-20Km in length) I can safely sit on 155bpm for the whole journey and this leaves me a bit of energy for the final 150 metres sprint at the end (maxing out at 170bpm).

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself

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