New V10

If you buy and Epic it should be explained to you by a reputable dealer what each ski is used for. I suppose you know why there are so many different golf clubs, I don't so I would have to ask a reputable dealer for an explanation.
If you paddle in the ocean you should know why there are so many variants of ski, it is not that easy to just jump in a ski and start catching open ocean waves, therefore the more stable skis are now available for beginners.
The New V10, V12, V14 are all top end racing skis of similar length, the V14 being the fastest and hardest to master. These skis are for different conditions, not necessarily ability. Whereas the V10 Sport is for lesser ability but still a fast ski that is stable for relatively competent paddlers.
I hope this long winded complicated explanation will help those who don't have any idea what the different skis are for.
By the way most manufactures have followed Epics line-up of skis and now have similar skis in their line-up, all very complicated.

MaxB wrote: So Epic apparently now has a V8, V10 Sport, V10 (& V10L still?), V12, V14. As a buyer looking for an intermediate level ski, I haven't a clue whether Epic has a suitable boat for me - despite there being a vast range to choose from.
...
I expect someone will tell me to go and test them all to see what I like. I think that's becoming a pretty patronising expectation. There aren't a lot of industries around these days where the consumer is expected to do that sort of legwork, in the absence of clear product positioning from manufacturers.

This is because no one knows what 'intermediate' means to you. Intermediate on flatwater? Intermediate on 8' swell? Looking at the Epic website, it looks like the skis are listed in order of general stability (which typically corresponds with theoretical flatwater speed). Looks pretty simple to me. If you read the descriptions and look a the specs of each boat, surely it narrows it down to where you aren't deciding between a V8 and V14.

So the important question is one that has cannot be answered by the kayak company, and therefore it isn't patronizing to tell someone to try the boats out if possible. You have to answer for yourself what your version of beg./intermediate/advanced is. Back when the tippy old Millennium was still the flatwater speed demon, the V10 Sport could have certainly been a 'beginner' boat in comparison. But the success of the V8 has seemed to shift the market drastically, which put the V10 Sport in a truly intermediate category.

But the terms are relative to paddler ability in their specific conditions. Someone who paddles in a mill pond might be 'intermediate' and the Sport might be their limit. Another guy could live in Cape Town and do downwind runs, and the V10 Sport is his limit. Both of these paddlers are intermediates in their conditions. I don't think it is that much 'legwork' to expect someone to determine their own skill level in their home town conditions. How could you expect any of the surfski companies to do this for you, with such wildly differing conditions around the world?

MaxB wrote: I'd like to see ski manufacturers' seriously improve their marketing. This thread clearly indicates that I'm not the only one struggling to understand what this boat is, and who it's supposed to appeal to. A selection guide, or a value proposition (i.e "why buy this product, instead of any other in this or a competitive range") is sorely lacking.


I think the manufacturers give a fair description.
I know this is an Epic thread but I like the description given by DeAnne at Ocean Paddle Sports of the various Fenn skis. Her description of "what ski is right for you" is in my opinion a great idea.

www.oceanpaddlesports.com/site/index.php

The descriptions pretty much tell me the specs as well as who the ski is aimed at.

postal256 wrote: [ I don't think it is that much 'legwork' to expect someone to determine their own skill level in their home town conditions. How could you expect any of the surfski companies to do this for you, with such wildly differing conditions around the world?

I know my own skill level, and I know my intended conditions. What I want is better information to allow me to more easily match those to available products. Epic's "Paddle Wizard" is an excellent example of a tool that assists consumers to make a suitable product selection.

I'm seeing lots of new skis come out, but I'm having increasing difficulty in determining which of those are of interest to me. I'm also finding that distributors are having difficulty in differentiating their products from those of their competitors - and in some cases they are even having difficulty differentiating skis in their own range.

Well, I do agree that if you look at all the choices in skis across the industry, it can be quite alot to process. I guess at the end of the day it's a good problem to have (so many choices).

I agree that in general its hard to tell which boat is for which type of paddler, beginner or elite, just by reading the names. Without reading DeAnne`s description posted in the link below I still would have no idea who the Blue-fin or Spark was aimed at. But I think Epic and a few other brands have made things relatively simple. They have a number system that starts low and ends high. The V6 is the lowest, therefore the most stable and slowest and the V14 is the highest, therefore most unstable and fastest. So using this idea I would imagine the new V10 stays in the same area as the old V10. Somewhere between the V8 and the V12. BMW uses a similar system, most BMW drivers start out driving a 3 series before moving up. I think for most of us we do the same with the ski`s. Start low and move up as we progress.

Its now up to us, like postal256 says to work out which one suits our own level.

I think the best suggestion is to ignore all the advertising guff and go out and put your bum in a seat and test some. You will know pretty soon which boat suits your level.

Don't just go by marketing hype or unrealistic opinion of your own ability. I mean the average person would struggle to know if they were a beginner or intermediate until they sit in a boat and judge there own level of comfort.

Also lets be honest, if you are in the intermediate/elite level, you know what ski is what regardless of the names of them. So in that respect the only manufacturer that has this clear is think. I mean how obvious is it htat the Think Ezy is obviously the "easy" boat.

Anyway this is just my opinion. I shall now go crawl back under my rock.

Merry Christmas to all.

Thanks markmyword best thing anybody can do --- paddle the boat hard!!! 30 min or more.

I am just wondering if Epic has "hardened" their Ultra layup at all for 2013...want the lighter layup but am spooked by stories of denting, dimpling, creasing from minor impacts/straps.

I'd also be interested in hearing whether the 2013 Ultra layup is stronger...
I might be tempted to go for the new V10 if it is...

As the SEL Excel is about the limits of my stability curve at this time (newbie) I would also like to hear how the V10 Ultra stacks up against the SEL Excel (about the same weight) stability-wise in mild conditions. (my limit for now) I have 2013 V8 Ultra coming this month that will be my go-to boat for bumps!

I have the SEL excel and the V10 ultra, paddle both in mild conditions.

I find that they are very similar, the SEL just slightly faster, the V10 slightly more stable.

I too am waiting for the new V10 and V10 Sport.

BTW, my new version V8 ultra left Charleston yesterday and will be in Brick NJ on Tuesday.

..which means mine is right behind it!! (CT)

Sorry for any confusion - was looking to find out stability between the NEW V10 (not out yet) and the SEL not the current V10.

Understood.

Was told we, (East Coast USA), will see it, (new V10), maybe this March.

Getting hard to find unfrozen water here now, maybe NYC harbor, ugh!

Good luck with new boat.

Hi Jerry,
Interesting that you find the V10 and SEL excel very similar. I had understood the V10 to be significantly less stable. Wesley Echolls' chart illustrates this.
Cheers

Hi John:

Perhaps the reason why I find my V10 slightly more stable then the SEL is the bucket in the V10 seems to fit my anatomy better, thus giving me the impression of better stability.

I'm 6'3.5" and weigh 160 lbs., my hips are 36", waist 30".

So, I prefer a narrow bucket.

I move around a little in my SEL. I paddled it for 7 days straight and found that moving the footboard 1/4" made a big difference for me.

So, my comments are only my own observations.

Interestingly, I have owned and paddled 6 different V10 Sports from various build years with several different sized buckets. The most current model, with the smallest bucket is most stable for me. And it is in ultra layup, not supposed to be as stable as the heavier performance constructions.

I have been told that the new V10 has gained additional stability. I hope the bucket remains the same, we will have to see.

For me, that's what makes paddling fun, trying a new model out and seeing how it compares with what was.

John

Actually, that is not entirely accurate. Wesley has the V10L and V10 Sport on his chart - just not the V10. Yes, the V10L is definitely below the SEL on stability - but isn't the V10L a different boat than the V10? (sorry, I am V10 challenged..)

Jerry,Cyberski,

The feedback is much appreciated. I have been doing some trials on several skis recently to identify a boat that provides a challenge from a V10 Sport (perf) but more importantly that fits me a little better. I also weigh in at 162 lbs and find the bucket and volume excessive for my dimensions, although confortable.

You are entirely correct about the chart. My comment was based on the fact that the hull is shared between the V10 and V10L so I would expect the stability is be almost identical. The behaviour in wind of course would not be the same. Sorry for confusion.

v10L same as v10 in terms of hull / width / stability - see epic website

"The V10L is a lower volume version of our award-winning V10 surf ski. We've lowered the front deck to decrease windage and moved the seat up 2" to give a better position for smaller to mid-sized paddlers. The V10L is proving very popular in areas that don't regularly encounter 6'+ waves. A heavier paddler and/or someone regularly paddling in areas with waves over 6' (2 meters) high would be better served by our V10 model"

Little bit off thread:

Tony H
I´m impressed with your list of previous skis owned experience. It would be very nice to read a short subjective description (3-5 lines) on the skis you have owned.

I´m currently in a Fenn SL, but as always looking for the improvement and for me that may be slightly more primary stability without loss of speed in triangular 10-15 K races. Thinking of Fenn Glide, Carbonology Flash, Nelo Vintage - who knows?