Epic V10 rudder problems

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15 years 5 months ago #2792 by Scotty
Replied by Scotty on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
CORRODED END ( ANODIC OR LEAST NOBLE)

MAGNESIUM
MAGNESIUM ALLOYS
ZINC
ALUMINUM 5052, 3004, 3003, 1100, 6053
CADMIUM
ALUMINUM 2117, 2017, 2024
MILD STEEL (1018), WROUGHT IRON
CAST IRON, LOW ALLOY HIGH STRENGTH STEEL
CHROME IRON (ACTIVE)
STAINLESS STEEL, 430 SERIES (ACTIVE)
302, 303, 304, 321, 347, 410,416, STAINLESS STEEL (ACTIVE)
NI - RESIST
316, 317, STAINLESS STEEL (ACTIVE)
CARPENTER 20CB-3 STAINLESS (ACTIVE)
ALUMINUM BRONZE (CA 687)
HASTELLOY C (ACTIVE) INCONEL 625 (ACTIVE) TITANIUM (ACTIVE)
LEAD-TIN SOLDERS
LEAD
TIN
INCONEL 600 (ACTIVE)
NICKEL (ACTIVE)
60 NI-15 CR (ACTIVE)
80 NI-20 CR (ACTIVE)
HASTELLOY B (ACTIVE)
BRASSES
COPPER (CA102)
MANGANESE BRONZE (CA 675), TIN BRONZE (CA903, 905)
SILICONE BRONZE
NICKEL SILVER
COPPER - NICKEL ALLOY 90-10
COPPER - NICKEL ALLOY 80-20
430 STAINLESS STEEL
NICKEL, ALUMINUM, BRONZE (CA 630, 632)
MONEL 400, K500
SILVER SOLDER
NICKEL (PASSIVE)
60 NI- 15 CR (PASSIVE)
INCONEL 600 (PASSIVE)
80 NI- 20 CR (PASSIVE)
CHROME IRON (PASSIVE)
302, 303, 304, 321, 347, STAINLESS STEEL (PASSIVE)
316, 317, STAINLESS STEEL (PASSIVE)
CARPENTER 20 CB-3 STAINLESS (PASSIVE), INCOLOY 825
NICKEL - MOLYBDEUM - CHROMIUM - IRON ALLOY (PASSIVE)
SILVER
TITANIUM (PASS.) HASTELLOY C & C276 (PASSIVE), INCONEL 625(PASS.)
GRAPHITE
ZIRCONIUM
GOLD
PLATINUM
PROTECTED END (CATHODIC OR MOST NOBLE)

The further apart the materials are located on this chart, the more likely that the one on the ANODIC end will corrode if they are both immersed in any fluid considered to be an electrolyte.

Salt water, is one of the best!

Had to research this for work not long ago it was easy to find on the net and there are really no excusses for using using SS and Al in a marine application.

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15 years 5 months ago #2793 by SS@Bermuda7
Replied by SS@Bermuda7 on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
Well done Rob (are we allowed to mention the cricket?)
Being a jurist I decided to enter the foray:
Hadennuf - Rudders do not seize overnight. Brief analogy - leave a car parked outside in Calgary over winter and its bound not to start. Not coming up for Epic (I paddle a Red7).
Epic Australia - Help out your kinsman, he's in distress, and it is your problem.

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15 years 5 months ago #2795 by Sandy
Replied by Sandy on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
Well this isn't about the rudder , it is about Epic USA doing a stellar and fisrt class job responding to a problem I have with a new paddle (simple really, the epoxy bonding on the locking collar didn't take). Epic response was EPIC , they were happy do sort things , I inquired as to material to use to fix it myself and epic said please let us , here is a prepaid fed ex lable and return authorization , we will fix it and upgrade to our new collar , how else can we Help ! They could not have been more forthright and accomadating, standing directly behind thier product.So... go figure , sorry for your troubles Hadenuf, don't quite see how you can hang it all on epic. As to materials , they changed when the problems arose , don't we all learn through experience. Pretty small economic world with even smaller margins , thanx to all the MFGs who keep on workin it out. Sandy
PS while i am at it thanx again to THINK and D. Remmler for standing behind his product(my evo) ,about a year later and the fix remains bomber.

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15 years 5 months ago #2797 by [email protected]

Epic Australia - Help out your kinsman, he's in distress, and it is your problem.


It's difficult for Epic to do so - since they don't know who this person is. He says that he's written to them; they say they have no record of any correspondence with anyone about a jammed rudder. They DID have a phone call from someone who asked them about a jammed rudder and they explained what to do about it. We're doing some research to find the person who called them but we're pretty sure it's not "hadennuf".

If "Hadennuf" was bona fide he'd have identified himself by now and got the help he needed. Instead, "Hadennuf" has continued to refuse to identify himself or to say why he feels he has to remain anonymous.

From email conversations that I have had personally both with Epic and with "hadennuf" himself, I have my doubts about the veracity and credibility of "hadennuf" and because of this we will be taking a much less tolerant view of anonymous complaints on the forums in future.

Noone likes being hoodwinked and I think we've all been taken for a ride by "hadennuf"!

I've hadennuf of "hadennuf"!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 5 months ago - 15 years 5 months ago #2798 by Hiro
Replied by Hiro on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
Well said Rob. Some people believe that anonymacy on the net gives them the right to write anything...
Last edit: 15 years 5 months ago by Hiro.

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15 years 5 months ago #2799 by [email protected]
I asked Greg Barton to comment on the issue of the rudder shafts. Here's what he had to say:

When we moved production to China, we utilized an anodized aluminum rudder shaft inside a fiberglass sleeve. The anodizing should protect the aluminum from corrosion, and there was no "stainless mixed with aluminum". However we found that after extended use, the anodizing could wear off of the aluminum shaft. If that happened, corrosion could occur on the shaft if used in salt water. Even that has not been a problem if the boat is used on a regular basis (a few times per week). However if the anodizing wears off after extended use, and then the ski is left to sit without being used for a few weeks, the corrosion can cause the rudder to seize inside the composite sleeve.

It took several months for this to start happening to any of our skis. Once we were made aware of the situation, we immediately switched to a composite shaft on our rudders, so there is composite on composite, and no aluminum to corrode. Our policy is to replace all corroded rudders that have had a problem, regardless of warrantee period. All we ask is that the customer contact their dealer or us directly (if they are from USA) and give us their name and the serial number from their ski. If they are not from USA, then they should contact their dealer (where they bought the ski) for replacement.

I hope this answers everybody's questions. Let me know if you need further clarification.

Best regards,
Greg

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 5 months ago #2800 by YBA/Jim Murray
Is it recommended by any builder to periodically clean and lubricate (sparingly) the rudder post and sleeve? Maybe that would open up aaother can of worms?

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15 years 5 months ago #2801 by [email protected]

Is it recommended by any builder to periodically clean and lubricate (sparingly) the rudder post and sleeve?


I've never come across such recommendations and I've never seen the necessity. I feel (strongly) that this area should be self-maintaining - you shouldn't have to clean/lube it.

But what I HAVE seen is cables and swages (ie fastenings) corroding and breaking and I always remove rudder assembly covers and leave them off in order to be able to inspect and rinse the the T-bar assembly.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 5 months ago #2802 by YBA/Jim Murray
So...I guess we can say that a copper crimp sleeve on SS cable inside the steering box is not the thing to use. Maybe corrosion there could become a safety issue?

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15 years 5 months ago #2803 by [email protected]

So...I guess we can say that a copper crimp sleeve on SS cable inside the steering box is not the thing to use. Maybe corrosion there could become a safety issue?


Yep, I have had a crimp disintegrate on me out at sea. I was in a bay on a flat day so it wasn't too much of an issue. But since then I try to replace my rudder cables every two years or so.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 5 months ago #2804 by [email protected]
OK, done a bit of research...

According to my sources, there are two types of crimps:
- Plain copper which will disintegrate over time due to galvanic reactions.
- Zinc plated copper which will not.

So, if you have the proper Zinc plated copper crimps, you should be ok.

Another thing to watch out for is the eyelets at the ends of the cables... If these are not good stainless, they too could cause problems.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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