Epic V10 rudder problems

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15 years 6 months ago - 15 years 6 months ago #2765 by hadennuf
I have been an avid supporter of Epic V10s since they landed in Australia a few years ago. I've been understanding of the various teething problems they experienced with their skis and in turn have upgraded numerous times given Epic's reciprocation and ongoing professionalism.

I now have a V10 that is around 18 months old with a completely frozen rudder system. It cannot be paddled. I recently contacted my local Epic Dealer and Epic in Sydney and over the phone was told that it was my own fault that the rudder had frozen as you must wash the ski down after each use. They never told me that when I bought it, however I do wash it down every time. What other ski manufacturer requires you to do that? This is crazy. I was then told that I should use Coca Cola to free the rudder. For god sake no one told me that I needed to pour Coke on the rudder before I paddle. Anyway, I have now written to Epic Kayaks regarding what I have been told is a known manufacturing defect and warranty matter and asked them for some assistance, however they have chosen not to respond.

I would really appreciate it if someone could please help me with some advise on what's happened to my rudder and how I can fix it? I'd love to go for a float sometime this summer.

Thanks in advance.
Last edit: 15 years 6 months ago by hadennuf. Reason: spelling

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15 years 6 months ago #2766 by superted
I have a carbon rudder in my Epic so don't expect to have yr problem.

If i was in yr shoes i would remove the rudder linkage and then try and put a piece of rubber hose/ balloon over the upper housing where the shaft comes out. Has to be the tightest fit you can get it, maye a small clamp can be used.

I'd then use a penetrating fluid (there is a lot better then WD40) by tipping a little bit down the tube. It would have to sit over night or longer and be topped up.

Getting the tube to fit tight would be the hardest bit. A very little tap every now and then may release a few air bubbles allowing the fluid to penetrate further.

It will be a slow process.( when i remember the name of the penetrating fluid i will post it).

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15 years 6 months ago #2767 by gdickinson
If your ski has an 'old' rudder system, this was a common problem with ski's that were not washed and more importantly not used. There was a corrosion effect brought on by the salt water as the rudder sat idle. They locked out over time. Epic pushed out a new carbon rudder, and hull tube, with a small 'pin' drilled through the rudder shaft to ensure that if anything broke at sea it would not fall out the craft. That is how you can see if you have an old or new rudder, only the new ones (about a yr old I guess) have the pin at the top of the shaft. . Any rudders that were frozen, we simply 'tapped out' from the top with a hammer. You just get it moving and out it comes. If you do any damage to the inner tube, get a replacement piece from Epic and any boat fix it shop will be able to re set it. It is minor work, even if it go's wrong, it is just a matter of sealing the tube in place with some resin and poss some gel coat.

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15 years 6 months ago #2768 by YBA/Jim Murray
I had the ferrule nut on my adjustable paddle seize with salt after a period of disuse. Hot water got it apart and clean. White lithium grease-just a bit where needed is now part of regular maintenance. Equipment used in fresh water needs regular cleaning, maintenance and repair. That used in salt water needs the same but more often, it seems.

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15 years 6 months ago - 15 years 6 months ago #2769 by hadennuf
Thanks for the advise K.

Wow... Epic are lucky to have such a terrific rep in this fella. Although he continually spoke of how customer service at Epic used to be as apparently things have changed big time. Anyway, its all been explained to me and it isn't something that I can fix myself with oil and lubricants. From what I hear it sounds like Epic Australia have been using too much lube if you know what I mean.

Thanks to those that offered advise but apparently the problem will keep recurring if not dealt with correctly. Interestingly Epic offered no advise. The rudder pin has actually corroded/fused with the carbon sleeve and needs to be properly removed and replaced. The carbon is damaged. Divola Boats charge $220 for the repair and I am happy with that even though everyone agrees that Epic should be taking responsibility. Also I have to get the boat to him which is expensive. I have sourced a new rudder from elsewhere at $80 as Epic wanted nearly $200 for a new one. This is starting to sound a bit like a joke...

But you know what really got to me was being told by some women at Epic over the phone that this was all my own fault. She was so rude and had absolutely no desire to assist. Furthermore it has been confirmed now that this is a known problem and that Epic have replaced hundreds of rudders over the past few years. Good luck Epic if you continue to employee monkeys.



On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:22 PM, k wrote:

This is a message from k at Surf Ski . Info ( www.surfski.info ) to you: ----

I had the same problem with my v10 12 months ago.

divola boats at manly vale will be able to fix it for you- the number is 0415209450

After numerous repairs and rudders (only seized after I stopped paddling the ski) I changed to fenn.

After seeing a banner ad on surfski.info for epic touting how great their quality was I sent epic US a great long email with all my gripes about the ski and also never got a reply. i think they have a great hull but should have fixed the materials long ago.
Last edit: 15 years 6 months ago by hadennuf.

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15 years 6 months ago #2770 by [email protected]
This problem has been reported on the forum before. It is caused by the aluminium rudder shaft reacting chemically with the stainless steel T-bar at the top of the shaft. Rising the boat has little if any effect on this reaction.

One of my buddies here in SA eventually resorted using hydrochloric acid to dissolve the aluminium rudder shaft. He poured the acid into the depression in the deck which acted as a reservoir. Some 6 hours later, out it came.

The Epic rudders now have a carbon fibre shaft and this problem no longer occurs.

hadennuf wrote:

But you know what really got to me was being told by some women at Epic over the phone that this was all my own fault. She was so rude and had absolutely no desire to assist. Furthermore it has been confirmed now that this is a known problem and that Epic have replaced hundreds of rudders over the past few years. Good luck Epic if you continue to employee monkeys.


But hey, I'm really uncomfortable with this mud-slinging. It's very unfair to slate someone - especially in such a vague way - while you hide behind a pseudonym. In any case, I cannot imagine any employee of any company simply being rude to a customer without provocation - it doesn't make sense. There are always two sides to a story and in my experience people are rude to me only when I've been rude to them!

This forum exists for paddlers to request help or to share stories/information. It works well as you've found. Generally you'll get advice pretty quickly and we're really proud of that. But imagine if we just had people logging on with silly pseudonyms and slagging each other off! The forum would die because no-one wants to read that kind of stuff.

If you have a beef with Epic or anyone else, why not write to Epic directly - I can give you the email addresses of the CEO, the majority shareholder, the CEO of Epic Australia or anyone you like. If you have a complaint, then contact them directly, explain what happened and who was involved and let them sort it out. Then you'll be helping them to sort out their own customer service - what a great thing!

But please refrain from mud-slinging on the forum - that's not what it's for.

Thanks!
Rob

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 6 months ago - 15 years 6 months ago #2772 by hadennuf
I take your point re mud slinging and the value of your forum. But hey... that's where this all started. After being dealt with so badly (and I assure you it was not warranted) I did write to Epic Australia twice in fact and they completely ignored my requests for assistance. I wrote to Mr Tony King as I was told that he now runs the company. No response was ever received. I have since learnt that Mr King actually works elsewhere at a company called Macquarie Telecoms and that it was his wife that had spoken to me over the phone. This is factual.

The only assistance I got was via your forum and I thank you for that. It offers a terrific post sales service to Epic Customers.
Last edit: 15 years 6 months ago by hadennuf.

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15 years 6 months ago #2773 by [email protected]
Ouch.

Well, they can always get hold of you either by posting a reply on this thread or privately by sending a private message through the forum...

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 6 months ago #2774 by tomb
Replied by tomb on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
Nicely written Rob, your correct the forum is not for mud slinging this has to be one of the best sites on the net lets keep it friendly.

Cheers
Tom

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15 years 6 months ago - 15 years 6 months ago #2775 by superted
99.9% of readers to this site are consumers. As a consumer I like to know what can or cannot be expected from x product and x company. Just because someone has a problem with a major brand/advertiser does'nt mean its mudslinging (hadenufs monkey comment stepped over the line!)

What is sad is that this is'nt the first post of its type and that the person/s have had to go public on situations that could be handled better.

Why does'nt Epic reply in the forums like other companies have (there would be PR gain with a succesfull outcome anyway).
Last edit: 15 years 6 months ago by superted.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Windfred

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15 years 6 months ago #2776 by YBA/Jim Murray
I agree with superted's comments, and would think most manufacturers appreciate constructive criticism.
I have just bought my first surfski (not epic) and found rudder problems before ever getting on the water. The post is stainless steel- but threaded rod. That should cause rapid wear inside the tube. The post top machining was done with a grinder and was a very sloppy fit into the tiller bar. The fix was with sheet metal shims and a bit of epoxy. The tiller bar is well made though, looks to be laser cut SS. I have to question if this is a standard of South African builders. Somehow I don't think so and will take it up with my dealer and the builder.

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15 years 6 months ago #2777 by [email protected]
superted wrote:

Just because someone has a problem with a major brand/advertiser does'nt mean its mudslinging (hadenufs monkey comment stepped over the line!)


I agree - with both points. I think stating what happened is fine; insulting language is not.

All I'm asking is to keep to the facts (the more factual the complaint, the more powerful it is in any case), avoid insulting language (and please use real names! Maybe I'm missing something here - why are people afraid to use their names? I mean if the complaint is legit, why not?)

We've got a service here in South Africa that works really well for consumers - www.hellopeter.com. I've used it several times to complain when I haven't had satisfaction from communcation directly with the company. Hellopeter sends an email to the company alerting them to the complaint and they almost always respond. Usually it's a win-win; the consumer gets to voice their problem and the company gets to regain some kudos by handling it appropriately.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 6 months ago #2778 by Epic
Replied by Epic on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
We at EPIC Kayaks Australia would normally not grace such insulting rubbish as is being posted by "hadennuf" with a reply. However in order to set the record straight, we wish to state that this diatribe from 'hadennuf' is without basis. We wholeheartedly agree with Rob that if these claims are legitimate, why are you hiding behind a pseudonym? Please identify yourself on this forum and we will gladly discuss any issue you may have regarding a rudder - if indeed you do. Please note: it is a blatant fabrication that our rudders are $200 as is the claim that we treat customers rudely.
Tony King

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15 years 6 months ago #2779 by YBA/Jim Murray
"Maybe I'm missing something here - why are people afraid to use their names? I mean if the complaint is legit, why not?)"

You are right I really only needed YBA when I was in the Georgian Bay Navy (intelligence division). Secrecy is no longer needed.

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  • Franklin
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15 years 6 months ago #2780 by Franklin
Replied by Franklin on topic Re:Epic V10 rudder problems
Happy New Year!
Surfski.info is a great site. Fun to watch all this unfold, very exciting!
When I bought my Epic V10 Sport...from Epic, the first thing they did was hand me their carbon shafted rudder. I didn't know there was a problem with the other, but they did.
They were great, honest and straight forward. I don't think that's changed!?
I'm sure Epic would give you their new rudder.
Life's a "Rock'en Good Time". Enjoy the ride!
Franklin Dickinson

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15 years 6 months ago #2781 by [email protected]

We at EPIC Kayaks Australia would normally not grace such insulting rubbish as is being posted by "hadennuf" with a reply


Oh boy, you Aussies are nothing if not forthright!

But... let's look at the positive: Hadennuf - you now have direct communication with Tony King. At the moment it seems you're both mad at each other and hey, based on what you've said, I can see both points of view. But I'm convinced that Epic is a professional organisation and have every intention of helping their customers...

So - Hadennuf, you've made your point and Tony has committed to sorting out your problem. Please communicate directly with him and get your rudder sorted!

Happy paddling!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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15 years 6 months ago - 15 years 6 months ago #2783 by onnopaddle
O.K....... From a manufacturer standpoint ....

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING !!!

ANYONE who knows something about marine environments knows you don't mix stainless and aluminum.

Good thing the housing tube itself is not aluminum as the new graphite shafts would be even worse if the boats sat in salt water. They really should have gone with stainless fro untold reasons IMHO.

I feel bad for the folks who have to suffer this R&D blunder.

The product called Simple Green is amazingly smart/safe to use to both break up both corrosion AND the byproduct of electrolysis. Soak and try. Honestly works great.
Last edit: 15 years 6 months ago by onnopaddle. Reason: P.C -ness

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15 years 6 months ago #2784 by YBA/Jim Murray
Probably the main consideration for selecting aluminum was weight reduction. Maybe there are grades and or treatments of Aluminum to withstand chemical environments (salt water), but manufacturing processes were not followed. Material selection is a complex process.
I agree with Onnopaddle that SS should have been used, but not with the "stupid" statement. There really is a lot of knowledge, expertise, and dedication in the company(Epic).
From day one it has looked like Epic has striven for the best- beginning with paddles.
Epic endeavours, Epic problems.

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15 years 6 months ago #2785 by onnopaddle
O.K. Apologies ... edited.

Jim, NOT attacking you but how much practical knowledge went into those " whoa, don't set the boat down on it's rudder" hollow posts ???

Maybe I just don't get it.

A smaller diameter SS or even Titanium ($$$) post would be cool too.

Aluminum ( anodized even ) can begin to corrode inside the rudder blade itself.

On the other side of the coin, The problem hadenuf has is not something that happens overnight.

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15 years 6 months ago #2786 by YBA/Jim Murray
Well, I don't personally know anybody at Epic- but can conjecture that Mr. Chalupski would have a good deal of practical experience. I believe Greg Barton is a farm boy and managed to earn a degree in mechanical engineering while continuously training&racing-very successfully too.
The point I was trying to make in my last post was that we don't know the thought process for design of- or manufacturing problems with these rudder posts.
Anyway, it seems Epic and their dealers have made a good effort to fix the problem.
I am inclined to agree about the use of SS, but not TIT.
Some of this carry-on reminds me of the engineer who designed and built a hundred perfect bridges. No one ever called him a bridge builder. Then one morning at 3:00 AM someone saw him coming out of a gay bar.......

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