Is it time to have regulated ski classes?

This post got me thinking

GlenRusky wrote: The saddest thing about all of this from an Australian point of view is that there is not much encouragement for new younger people to get into this sport. At the moment the market is geared towards those with disposable incomes that can afford a $3K or $5K boat. We will always have the surf club events encouraging the 'around the can' races but when it comes to the ocean events, the majority of the participants (on the east coast here) are in their 30's, 40's & 50's. I compare this with what I see from South Africa in the races out of Cape Town and Durban and am amazed to see the younger participants alongside the older crews and I think Australia needs to take a 'leaf out of their book' in encouraging the next generation of paddlers otherwise we will be left behind.
Now WA participant ages may be different but even AR_convert highlights that plastic boats are the preferred choice over the composite skis because of price.
Hopefully Australia's 'next generation' of ocean ski paddlers don't get left behind because of the expensive cost of a ski (I am sure the Saffas won't mind if they do ).

With the "adoption" by the ICF of the Ocean Racing World cup I am wondering how far away some regulations may be

To kick off the discussion how about we as a paddling community get on the front foot and start shaping the thinking leading to classes in ocean ski racing.

How is this for a suggestion?

"Club" or "Sport" class

Minimum weight : 16kg
Minimum width : 51cm (cover most current beginner designed skis)

The idea would be to encourage production of a low cost ski class to remove any cost barriers to entering the sport and would encourage Canoeing & Surf Clubs etc to invest in club owned skis of this class as a means to introduce their junior and new adult members to the sport.

Will that bring costs down?

I mean the reason it is cheaper to get into the market in SA must be A. That's where a few of these are made, and B. it has been happening there a while so the 2nd hand market is a lot more competitive.

2-3k is just what any sport costs these days. Except maybe sycronised swimming.

What is the purpose of regulated classes? Isn't the mantra of surfski that everything is open to our interpretations of what can/could/should work in the ocean?


It also makes it a pain for race organisers catering for extra classes. I also think it devalues national titles with guys winning titles in classes where only 2 or 3 guys show up.


Personally, I think bring in a minimum weight. Has a two fold effect. The first is it will mean strong, safe skis. Secondly, it levels the playing field. I've spoken to an Olympic athlete and winner of the Australian spec ski title, who buys his own skis. He can afford a 12kg ski, but is put off racing as he feels he will be showing up against sponsored athletes racing 9 and 10kg craft and will be at a disadvantage. Unfortunately I haven't seen this guy at a race for about 3 years, yet he continues to race spec skis and is at the top of of that sport.

Marathon paddling had this issue in years gone past, with guys showing up at Worlds in one race boats weighing as light as 4kgs. They brought in a minimum of 8kgs after that, which has leveled the playing field, as well as the price structure for 8kg construction boats.

sAsLEX wrote: 2-3k is just what any sport costs these days. Except maybe sycronised swimming.

Geez mate, I don't know what sport your kids/wife are into but I couldn't afford that sort of dough for a family sport. I see many families doing kayaking who own guppy kayaks for each of the kids, a K1 kayak each for Mum and Dad and maybe a K2 thrown in for good measure. This is not affordable when it comes to skis?

Yes while you can spend big $ on sporting equipment you can get into cycling for around $1000 and I could list a whole heap of sports that are cheaper.

This is not about having a whinge about ski prices but about trying to figure out how we can grow the sport by removing a possible barrier to entry by new paddlers....the cost.

If I could buy new skis suitable for my kids I would. As it is I bought a second hand Guppy ski which is great, but new they are up around $2k here. I have also got a 2nd hand double to get the wife and kids on the back to try to interest them in downwind and wave riding. I couldn't afford a new one. 2nd hand double skis are as rare as rocking horse dung here, why, because very few people can afford a new one.

Stew wrote: What is the purpose of regulated classes? Isn't the mantra of surfski that everything is open to our interpretations of what can/could/should work in the ocean?


It also makes it a pain for race organisers catering for extra classes. I also think it devalues national titles with guys winning titles in classes where only 2 or 3 guys show up.


Personally, I think bring in a minimum weight. Has a two fold effect. The first is it will mean strong, safe skis. Secondly, it levels the playing field. I've spoken to an Olympic athlete and winner of the Australian spec ski title, who buys his own skis. He can afford a 12kg ski, but is put off racing as he feels he will be showing up against sponsored athletes racing 9 and 10kg craft and will be at a disadvantage. Unfortunately I haven't seen this guy at a race for about 3 years, yet he continues to race spec skis and is at the top of of that sport.

Marathon paddling had this issue in years gone past, with guys showing up at Worlds in one race boats weighing as light as 4kgs. They brought in a minimum of 8kgs after that, which has leveled the playing field, as well as the price structure for 8kg construction boats.

Agree with most of what you've said there Stew, let the big boys and those who are sponsored and have deep pockets race the ultralight skis although as you pointed out there may come a day when a minimum weight is forced upon us.

I am not anticipating a whole raft of new classes, just one class that gets new paddlers in the door or paddlers like me who don't earn a lot of money but want to compete on a fairly even playing field.

This weekend I am leaving my 12kg ski at home and racing my 20kg+ plastic ski...why? because there is great competition in that class and I find it more enjoyable

AR_convert wrote:

sAsLEX wrote: 2-3k is just what any sport costs these days. Except maybe sycronised swimming.

Geez mate, I don't know what sport your kids/wife are into but I couldn't afford that sort of dough for a family sport. I see many families doing kayaking who own guppy kayaks for each of the kids, a K1 kayak each for Mum and Dad and maybe a K2 thrown in for good measure. This is not affordable when it comes to skis?

But wouldn't they all be old shape K boats? Which can be picked up cheaply. Ask the same family if they could afford the same line up supplied by brands like Nelo or Plastex.

Which then leads us to cheap used skis. Old Millenniums would be hard pushed to fetch $1000, as would Icons etc. And these designs are less than 15 years old.

sAsLEX wrote: Will that bring costs down?

I mean the reason it is cheaper to get into the market in SA must be A. That's where a few of these are made, and B. it has been happening there a while so the 2nd hand market is a lot more competitive.

Maybe not immediately, but if South African made skis (Horizon) can be sold here for under $2k then surely an increased demand for a class of ski that can be made cheaper in glass would promote competition for cheaper skis.

With a class of ski an increased market could also lead to a bigger second hand market that would in turn keep ski prices low.

AR_convert wrote:

Stew wrote: What is the purpose of regulated classes? Isn't the mantra of surfski that everything is open to our interpretations of what can/could/should work in the ocean?


It also makes it a pain for race organisers catering for extra classes. I also think it devalues national titles with guys winning titles in classes where only 2 or 3 guys show up.


Personally, I think bring in a minimum weight. Has a two fold effect. The first is it will mean strong, safe skis. Secondly, it levels the playing field. I've spoken to an Olympic athlete and winner of the Australian spec ski title, who buys his own skis. He can afford a 12kg ski, but is put off racing as he feels he will be showing up against sponsored athletes racing 9 and 10kg craft and will be at a disadvantage. Unfortunately I haven't seen this guy at a race for about 3 years, yet he continues to race spec skis and is at the top of of that sport.

Marathon paddling had this issue in years gone past, with guys showing up at Worlds in one race boats weighing as light as 4kgs. They brought in a minimum of 8kgs after that, which has leveled the playing field, as well as the price structure for 8kg construction boats.

Agree with most of what you've said there Stew, let the big boys and those who are sponsored and have deep pockets race the ultralight skis although as you pointed out there may come a day when a minimum weight is forced upon us.

I am not anticipating a whole raft of new classes, just one class that gets new paddlers in the door or paddlers like me who don't earn a lot of money but want to compete on a fairly even playing field.

This weekend I am leaving my 12kg ski at home and racing my 20kg+ plastic ski...why? because there is great competition in that class and I find it more enjoyable

But how will creating new, and slow design classes increase numbers? Marathon racing has a whole bunch of different classes, and very few feed into the K1 sections. Guys get comfortable on TK1s or skis or whatever, see they can claim a few national titles while doing so, and are not encouraged to move to K1s. We see the number of classes expand at marathon races all the time, yet the top of the sport is struggling for numbers.

Stew wrote: But wouldn't they all be old shape K boats? Which can be picked up cheaply. Ask the same family if they could afford the same line up supplied by brands like Nelo or Plastex.

You are making the point for me Stew, with a class of ski regulating weight and width the brands are less important. A brand new guppy can be bought for $990.

As for Milleniums and the like yes they are around but imagine how much more they could be worth if they were still competitive in a class and most people could paddle one. I see Carbon Milleniums got for less that a 2nd hand plastic ski!

Time to go to bed before I start typing in a grumpy frame of mind, I hope someone out there in ski land understands my passion is to grow the sports participation level.

There will always be room for quality brands and superior design and lay-up within a class, but at least lets make it easier to get into. Manufacturers should be thinking that rather than ski sales being diverted to cheaper made ski's that there will be more entrants into the ski market who once hooked will see the value in their premium product.

Stew wrote: Marathon racing has a whole bunch of different classes, and very few feed into the K1 sections. Guys get comfortable on TK1s or skis or whatever, see they can claim a few national titles while doing so, and are not encouraged to move to K1s. We see the number of classes expand at marathon races all the time, yet the top of the sport is struggling for numbers.

Wow, big questions for this time of night, but I can at least tell you that my training partner has moved from ski to K1 for that reason, not enough competiton in our marathon series for competitive ski paddlers and if not for the fact that I live 200m from the ocean edge but would have to drive 40 minutes to train in a K1 then I would be doing the same.

But that is just marathon racing, what about ocean racing, wouldn't having more people paddling a downwind capable class of ski encourage learning the skill of downwind paddling and hence improve entries to ocean paddling events.

It we are happy for people to buy $1200-$1600 plastic skis for adventure races and river/ocean based races without ever progressing to downwind paddling then I guess I'm wasting my breath. Remember my progression and many of my friends progression in paddling has been from a plastic ski bought soley for these adventure and river based events.

If some of the guys I knew had bought a ocean ski instead I could be saying "come for a downwind paddle with me" on a mild downwind run and then they would be hooked.

AR_convert wrote:

Stew wrote: But wouldn't they all be old shape K boats? Which can be picked up cheaply. Ask the same family if they could afford the same line up supplied by brands like Nelo or Plastex.

You are making the point for me Stew, with a class of ski regulating weight and width the brands are less important. A brand new guppy can be bought for $990.

As for Milleniums and the like yes they are around but imagine how much more they could be worth if they were still competitive in a class and most people could paddle one. I see Carbon Milleniums got for less that a 2nd hand plastic ski!

Time to go to bed before I start typing in a grumpy frame of mind, I hope someone out there in ski land understands my passion is to grow the sports participation level.

There will always be room for quality brands and superior design and lay-up within a class, but at least lets make it easier to get into. Manufacturers should be thinking that rather than ski sales being diverted to cheaper made ski's that there will be more entrants into the ski market who once hooked will see the value in their premium product.

What's not competitive about a Millennium? They are still one of the fastest designs ever. Same way a Cleaver X is still an awesome K1. But very few people want to paddle a Cleaver X, unless they are looking to save money, or have an old affinity with the design. They want the latest Nelo or Plastex, whatever the guys in the Olympic final are paddling. The cheaper skis are in existence. If people want them, they'll buy them.

AR_convert wrote:

Stew wrote: Marathon racing has a whole bunch of different classes, and very few feed into the K1 sections. Guys get comfortable on TK1s or skis or whatever, see they can claim a few national titles while doing so, and are not encouraged to move to K1s. We see the number of classes expand at marathon races all the time, yet the top of the sport is struggling for numbers.

Wow, big questions for this time of night, but I can at least tell you that my training partner has moved from ski to K1 for that reason, not enough competiton in our marathon series for competitive ski paddlers and if not for the fact that I live 200m from the ocean edge but would have to drive 40 minutes to train in a K1 then I would be doing the same.

But that is just marathon racing, what about ocean racing, wouldn't having more people paddling a downwind capable class of ski encourage learning the skill of downwind paddling and hence improve entries to ocean paddling events.

It we are happy for people to buy $1200-$1600 plastic skis for adventure races and river/ocean based races without ever progressing to downwind paddling then I guess I'm wasting my breath. Remember my progression and many of my friends progression in paddling has been from a plastic ski bought soley for these adventure and river based events.

If some of the guys I knew had bought a ocean ski instead I could be saying "come for a downwind paddle with me" on a mild downwind run and then they would be hooked.

But again, what does a slow design class do to encourage people into racing?

If you look at the nation with probably the most skis paddlers, South Africa, we can see how a divisional system has worked really well, with paddlers ranked on their race results. A similar tactic has been incorporated by marathon racing in several counties, including Australia.

I don’t think that classes based on gear restrictions, i.e. weight, width, is the answer. Better to classify the paddler and not the ski or you end up with a goofy system of racing classes like the USCA has created in the US with the end result being that there is no US national championships race other than the US surfski champs.

I don’t think that minor boat weight differences such as 2-4 kg’s has much of any influence on surfski race outcomes. I can see arguments for having a minimum weight, in the interests of safety, however.

A cheaper entry level ski option might add some to the numbers though whether this can be met over time by a larger market of used ocean skis, or by cutting costs somewhere in the manufacturing process – by offering hulls that paddlers can finish on their own or something. . . I don’t know.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while paddling is a great sport for us, most people will not be interested even if there is a ready supply of good cheap skis. There are too many other sports and time-sinks to compete with these days. Most of my friends who don’t paddle just aren’t interested or they prefer another sport – it’s not because of the price of skis.

Kids are another issue altogether because they don’t have jobs and it’s a parent’s financial gamble as to whether or not they’ll use what’s bought for them. There really is not a good used market for kid’s skis or boats in the US and the high cost is the main deterrent in buying a new boat for your kid. The only way to meet this problem is obviously with cheaper kids’ skis and whether this can be best accomplished by shorter rotomolded boats, or lighter layup glass “less finished” boats, or maybe by having a club-owned mold where people can build their own kids skis – with direction, of course, might be options.

What difference does 2kg of boat make, when most of the competitors will have a greater variance in their weight (Overall boat weight).

I don't think that the price of a ski itself is the only reason that people don't take up the sport. Aside from the additional costs (paddles, clothes, roof racks etc), there is the whole logistics and expense of getting to the water.

If you are lucky enough to be able to carry your ski to the water in a few minutes, it's a lot easier than the guy/girl who has to drive 30 minutes to get wet. You need to have your own car (or fit in with the rest of the family activities), find (and maybe pay) for parking when you get there, and spend time loading and unloading etc. A 60 minute paddle can take over two hours.

It's why I see most of the paddlers in Sydney are 30-50, with the 40-49 group seeming to be the most popular. They have cars, money and time.........

What am I missing? We are referring to 12kg skis as heavy and not standing a chance against sponsored skis? Fenn and Epic's USA websites show the lightest, most expensive skis are 11-11.5kgs. Where do 8 and 4kg skis come from and who uses them?

What about spec skis? "Spec" stands for "specifications" I assume, so there is already a universally accepted set of standards to create a "one-class" boat, much like sailing (Laser, sunfish...). There are set dimensions for weight, length and width. Spec skis may be designed for the surf and around the cans, but my spec ski works just fine on lakes and rivers. They may be a bit slower, but all spec skiers have the same handicap. Since the actual specs probably rarely, if ever change, the secondary market must be well established--you can get one for yourself or your kid at a reasonable price. So, if you want a class that is affordable and everyone has the same advantages and disadvantages as everyone else in their class, why not have a spec ski category?

Generally one of the ways to kill any sport for cheap innovation is to standardize or regulate. Too many rules restrict development. Or it just costs lots of money to develop better products. Look at F1, the espionage they go through to get the oppositions innovations and the lengths they have to go through to keep things secret.

Why don't we all drive Model T Fords, this was a great car in its day, cutting edge! why would we want to make anything better?

Even the ICF had to change its standards for kayaks. The boats were looking like a joke.

By the way have you seen the ICF regulations for an open ocean ski, do yourself a favor and look them up!

Okay, so I looked, nothing to see really ?

ICF Regs

8
CONSTRUCTION
[TR]
8.1 All the crafts shall be boats which the competitor sits on with one water tight compartment, and Self-bailing.
ICF Canoe Ocean Racing Competition Rules 2013
10
8.2 The shape, construction method, materials used and steering mechanisms are without restrictions.
8.3 All the crafts shall have one hard point provided near the cockpit for attaching a leash.
8.4 All openings into the hull larger than 12mm in diameter (drain and vent holes) must be fitted with a cover that is mechanically fastened in place.
9
MEASURING AND INSPECTION
[TR]
9.1 The dimensions of the surfski do not need to be measured. Inspection shall be limited to hull openings and their closure methods and the presence of hard point suitable for attaching a leash.

Quite a few missing the hard point to attach a leash.