Transition from V10 Sport Performance to V12 Ultra

Congratulations to Rightarmbad (whats the rationale behind your moniker?)on your excellent weight loss achievement. Wait til you get to my age !!

I'm another big-ish chap (190 cm, 93 kg) Have been impressed by how stable I found the Fenn Elite to. be. Admitedly this was a glass Elite, however I'm a new paddler with experience only in plastics really (Spirit PRS, Endorfinn).

On my two Epic demo paddles (V10s performance, V10 ultra) I found the seating position was less comfortable than the Fenn. My backside felt pinned to the botton of a sump with little back support. Is this a feature of Epics in general or just the V10 range?

HI
i am assuming hopefully correctly that the Legend/V12 query was directed at me!
i preferred the Think Legend because the paddling position enabled me to be more 'over' the blade so i had more power and better leg drive than the V12, and the secondary stability was also better in my view. It may not be as quick in flatter water though.

while i'm here, i agree with rightarmbad that it's better to get a tippy boat and progress from flatter water to rougher as you gain skills and core strength. I also agree that technique in a stable boat is very different to a tippy boat so if you progress from one to the other you need to relearn how to paddle

while the argument to learn in a stable ski makes some sense, i think it most benefits the ski manufacturers who want to keep you on a never-ending up-grade cycle. Look at epic for example, who when introducing the V8 suddenly declared the V10S to 'have always been' an intermediate rather than a beginner's ski!!

svengali wrote:

while i'm here, i agree with rightarmbad that it's better to get a tippy boat and progress from flatter water to rougher as you gain skills and core strength. I also agree that technique in a stable boat is very different to a tippy boat so if you progress from one to the other you need to relearn how to paddle

I disagree here, there's no way I would have been able to get my core strength, stability and ability to read the swell/chop by jumping straight into a V10L and toughing it out. As it was I was falling out of my V10 sport for the first few months in relatively easy conditions. The change over costs are not that great as the Glass Sport/XT/Evo type boats are in demand by beginners.

You need to develop muscle memory on a stable platform so that when the platform changes you dont have to think about your paddling.

I have seen beginners selling V10, Mako 6, Uno's after giving up on them...and we must not forget that Ski paddling is a social sport so beginners often want to join thier mates on the downwind runs, not paddle around an estuary or river by themselves while thier mates are enjoying the downwind runs

I'm with the tippy boat proponents too! I and a friend got 'beginner' skis (Mentors) as our first skis that were tippier than the real 'beginner' skis like the XT and Sport and yeah we spent a fair bit of time out of them - but when we got the hang of it we did just fine.

Then when we upgraded to the V10L and Mako 6 we just took off, no stability issues with the change. A friend who went from an XT to a V10L is still wobbling on downwinds over a year later.

I think it all depends how much time you're willing to put in learning how to handle a tippy ski, if you are trying to train four sports like AR convert then a more stable ski will be a better choice probably for your entire paddling career - not to put words in his mouth but that's why he's gone back to a more stable ski from the V10L??

Just my two cents tho.

i guess you never know until you try (to build up from flatwater on a tippier ski)

I think Perth ski chick is right - it all depends on how much time you can afford to spend to work on your balance...and if you're not going to try to paddle at least 4x per week perhaps just stay with a beginner's boat?

as for the core strength and muscle memory argument, that only holds if you are training the same muscles in the beginner ski as in the tippier ski

If you receive coaching and are a technique nazi this might be the case...but my experience a beginner's ski allows you to develop lazy habits, poor technique and little true core stability.

After all, the whole point of a beginner's ski is that the hull does nearly all the balancing work for you.

I didn't know what core strength and stabilisers were until i regularly paddled a tippier ski!

I also had to correct deficient technique that might have been less efficient but made no material stability difference in the starter ski - but made me very unstable in the tippy ski. I'm still working on it today!

I noticed that when I moved into a tippier K1, the boat would not tolerate any sloppy technique! If I slacked off it threw me overboard without any hesitation or warning. That said it takes time and patience to keep a relationship with a boat that you are not initially capable of paddling well. I found I would go out day after day in the tippier boat and then when I'd had enough of being thrown out I would sulk back to the comfort of my intermediate K1. This has been going on for about six months now and although I am getting on better with my tippy K1 it has taken a lot of work.

Personally I think that a beginner should begin in a 2nd hand boat that is just 1 level over their comfort zone and perservere. It shouldn't take long to get used to it and then they can trade up without having lost too much value - if any! A beginner will generally not really know what they want on day one and its not until they get into the sport that they work out what they want to do and what boat is best for them. Another reason to not stress about getting the perfect boat on day one. Accept the fact that within say six months you will want to trade up, down or sideways into a new (2nd hand) boat.

I agree with Svengali. The legend is a much more manageable beast than the v12. The legend gives up about .3 kph in the flat, but I would rate it faster downwind in small to moderate swell. Sideshore the legend is much more manageable than the v12. The v12 is a real Jeckyll and Hyde boat. Very stable in the flat. Very twitchy in small sideshore and struggles in small downwind unless you have a huge tank and can keep pulling through waves.
As for buying a tippy boat and getting used to it. Well that's alright if your're 25, swim like a fish, live in an area where the water is always warm and have the psyche to deal with falling out constantly. Not everyone has the balance or the ability or the drive to paddle an elite boat.
If your one of the gifted few, by all means get a tippy boat,
but for the majority of beginners you will progress faster and have more fun by paddling a boat that matches your ability.

Perth ski chick wrote:

I think it all depends how much time you're willing to put in learning how to handle a tippy ski, if you are trying to train four sports like AR convert then a more stable ski will be a better choice probably for your entire paddling career - not to put words in his mouth but that's why he's gone back to a more stable ski from the V10L??

Just my two cents tho.

I think we're heading towards some middle ground here, as you have picked up on, not everyone has got...

1) 4 days a week to train
2) access to calm waters that is not so far away that it disuades paddling regularly

I am blessed to have the ocean 200 metres from my back door, but the winds here in Western Australia usually mean I will be in one to two foot chop and or 15-25 knot winds most days in the afternoons, and thats it the protected waters without heading out to sea.

Congratulations to Rightarmbad (whats the rationale behind your moniker?)on your excellent weight loss achievement. Wait til you get to my age !!

Rightarmbad is due to a subluxed right AC joint from an MTB accident many years ago.
Weight loss is simply due to now being able to get up and do stuff again instead of lying down waiting for my back to heal.
For a long time there all I could do was paddle carefully, standing up straight for any length of time was a no go and
biking was mixed results.
It's now been 15 months and I finally have it beat.

And I may not be far off your age, whatever it is...

My comments in regards to upgrading the water not the boat, is tempered by the fact that I live on the Gold coast of Australia, the water is never colder than 18 deg and there are are many creeks and canals available as well as the Broadwater and the open ocean.

If I had to learn in the ocean without choice, then maybe my choice of boat would be different, especially as the Gold Coast has a surf break running the whole way along it.

But then, my choice would have been to get a second hand spec ski.
Tougher and there are plenty around these parts.

If I had too much money right now, I'd have one anyways.
The surf break is not really a good home for an ocean racing ski.

So here is my new advice, get a spec ski first, you won't break it and you can really learn the surf.
You can keep it and use it on the days you are not game to take out the cheat ski.

From what I have seen, they are close in speed and stability to a V10s.

Actually the thread on seat height reminded me of a tip on this forum some time ago, for those in the beginner boats to use foam seat padding to slowly build up thier seat height thus lifting the centre of gravity and making the ski tippier in preparation for the next tippier ski

In preparation to testing a ski for the first time, I raised my seat in my Necky Looksha II by about 2 inches (5 cm), then when I was comfortable with that height after two weeks paddling, I raised it again by another inch (2.5 cm). I paddled with the elevated seat for about one month (3-5 time a week) before trying a ski for the fist time (a stellar SEL). Within 10 seconds of paddling the SEL, I was chasing powerboats and surfing their wakes. I didn't care for the stellar for it's overly-wide bucket that I slid around in, nor it's propensity to broach in smallish wake. But after about 20 minutes of paddling the SEL, I was sure that I wanted to get a ski for myself.
Two weeks later, I made the pilgrimage to Epic in Charleston, SC and purchased a V12 ultra. While there, I demo'd a V12 performance (32 lbs). I was amazed at how stable the performance was, even in short, steep chop. This was July 16th, 2011. Got the Ultra home to North Carolina OBX, and wow, a completely different feeling boat than the performance lay-up. Definitely not as stable in the slop. But I kept at it, and little by little I got very proficient at pulling hard in any condition.
I believe Perth Ski Chick and svengali are correct in their assessments of skill. Just go with the fastest boat you imagine yourself in winning races, then go practice, do resistive and plyo training when you can't paddle, and paddle the tippy boat rather than your old stable tank, even if you get scared. Ok... don't put yourself into danger you can't extricate yourself from, though. Don’t get bashful and buy the extra-wide ski. You might as well just get a roto-molded touring boat, then. Before you spend the money and while you are test driving other elite-style boats, modify your existing tanker with a higher seat---raise it to the point that it is almost uncomfortable to paddle (stability wise). You have to remember why you want to do this thing called surfski... if the thought doesn't thrill you and make you get out and paddle, then you should question your motives for having/wanting an elite-type ski. Maybe I got lucky, as I did enough research; the other boat I really wanted to try was the Fenn Mako Elite. That didn't happen as yet, so I'm still quite satisfied with my choice.
For comparison, I'm 48 yrs old, about 5 ft-11.5 in (182 cm) and 200 lbs (91 kg), athletic build.
As for the performance of the V12 Ultra after I've become very comfortable in it... it does everything I expect it to with aplomb. No bad habits (no silly broaching), and is quite fast. But she can be somewhat squirrely in the short, steep, multidirectional chop, but no more than any other ski is. Doing runners is amazing. Put your head down and she just goes like stink. Upwind she does a great impression of a wave-piercing combatant craft (this is a good thing). I can paddle three hours or more in her in challenging conditions and not get a sore bumm or back. Very comfortable for me. Too bad she can’t be rolled.

I agree. I'm 73kg. I sold my V12 elite as it felt like is was paddling on a knife edge. Don't even think I had the full length of the ski in the water - it was just too light with too much volume for me.