Forward stroke comments

I'm working my butt off to develop my forward stroke technique with maximum torso rotation combined with leg drive and hip rotation as well and I'm very happy with my progress but after watching this video globalsurfski.com/2013/05/18/video-from-eurochallenge-2013/ I'm beginning to wonder just how important all of this rotation really is. At least several of these world class paddler's knees hardly move at all and one actually has one knee higher than the other all of the time with no apparent leg drive. Some appear to use minimal torso rotation as well. Is it only on technique videos like the one from Epic featuring Greg Barton and Oscar and Brent Reitz's and other videos of K-1 paddling that a lot of torso and hip rotation are used? What am I missing?

I agree. Nothing like getting burned off by some 70 year old paddling only with his arms

If you don't focus on number 17 in the video (who DNF'd the 2nd race for some reason) and look around at some of the other paddlers, you will see plenty of leg drive and rotation happening. Everyone to different extents as per any aspect of technique. Keep at it would be my advice.

I don't think you are missing anything except that many surfski paddlers have poor stroke technique (yes even some of the top paddlers) I have to admit I was appalled by what I saw on the video. Leg drive and rotation are obviously desirable for max efficiency, but for some reason many do not implement this as much and still have a modicum of success. Find rambo's video of Clint from last year's Doctor?? and you'll get a better idea for what leg drive looks like in a ski..I surmise that it is the pedal actuated rudder that is to blame. Many skis I've tried in no way allow me to really drive off the ball of my foot without perturbing the rudder, whereas in a K-1 you can really stand on the foot plate. the under the leg hump on skis doesn't help matters either. In a sprint boat my legs gets fully extended almost to the floor of the boat, and I cannot approach this extension in a ski. I suppose both of these issues must offer some advantage downwind in the ski in the form of a tradeoff, but they are in no way conducive to driving the boat fast. (wait,! I just realized they were fenns, that's the problem) lol

Actually KC I was just watching that video for that exact reason because I was going to post it up as the perfect example of good leg drive... Problem is through most of the video, the raising and falling of knees is barely noticeable.



A few times when he explodes you can get a sense of his legs working.

I don't know if I am doing it all right but...

For me personally, when I have my best rhythm and strongest stroke going,(power wise) I find that my heels are digging into the floorboard and through my entire stroke, my elbows never seem to bend more than the slight bend they have in them at all times, even when raising my blade out of the water.

When my stroke is wrong, I don't rotate enough and I push the paddle with my forward hand too much extending my arm straight forward and I start to bend my elbow as I bring the blade out of the water.

Because of my short legs and the hump in the cockpit, there is only so much lift and fall of my knees that I can do, but it is still noticeable.

As far as too much rotation, I find that if my upper body rotation continues after the point where my legs are tight against the hump, my balance starts to go off and I start bringing the blade past my hips.

This causes me to start to lift a lot of water because my blades path has started to "push down" instead of "push forward".

In summary, I find that the best amount of rotation for me personally, is when my elbows position stays almost consistant through my entire stroke, I do not "push my forward hand at the end of the stroke" and I can feel myself applying steady pressure to the heel of the foot-board from the beginning of my stroke to the end.

Does this sound semi-correct?

I did a bit of forward stroke work yesterday (bad elbow and all) to work harder on keeping straight arms and using more legs/torso. While I can rotate well, I find that I agree with PaddleFaster - that if I keep rotating AFTER I finish leg drive - that I lose my balance very quickly. I am having "challenges" with several parts of my stroke that are easily fixed in my case:
1. I don't completely bury the blade before starting to apply power.
2. My leg drive is starting too soon in the stroke I think - during the catch phase
3. My left blade plant is more vertical and closer to the boat than the right one.

Does anyone think that these first two things are related - does one issue create or exacerbate the other? Maybe I just need alot more seat time.

I gave up on the idea of pushing with the heel and am now pushing with the ball of my foot. To achieve that, I have tighten the strap so it is just possible to get my toes over the strap.

Keep drilling 1x, it will pay huge dividends later.

Now THAT'S exactly what I look like when I paddle...

(Minus the good form, speed, balance and athletic build...)

Wow! LPB, the Zsolt video is a much better example of forward stroke than the Clint video I cited, where he's actually fairly relaxed on some runners and not paddling hard most of the time. Nice teaching tool there w/Zsolt. real nice form!
It is fair to say that many racers are successful with less obvious leg drive. Maybe they derive their rotation from a diagonal abdominal crunch more than a pelvic rotation, in a shorter-impulse fashion. This style would not need the duration of leg drive associated with a longer K1 stroke but just a bump at the opportune instant. It might also allow for a faster cadence and less reliance on a too-long recovery. Just b/c classic "high hands/high angle" sprint technique is the best way to drive a K1 maximally doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best way to drive a ski at 90% for an hour. Also, once downwind, other factors play a much greater role in success than textbook technique.
I've seen many successful paddlers keep their elbows slightly bent and in tight throughout the stroke. What they sacrifice in ultimate extension/rotation they gain in the form of a very relaxed, compact, consistent, repeatable stroke with very few "moving parts". the best example of this is sprint is Rene Poulsen of Denmark. (video on ICF canoe of recent world cups. His elbows are semi-bent and his arm carriage low, but it places fewer extraneous demands on his trapezious muscles is particular, and he's good in the the 5K events so it works well for distance.
That said, most surfski paddlers still reach too much with arms vs. actual rotation. Although as I said before, certain things about skis conspire to make this more difficult.

Wow that zsolt is amazing. Funny though, you could argue his paddle is not vertical enough a through the water. It shows that technique can vary for the individual.

For me that Zsolt video always brings up questions I have yet to hear an answer too.

1, why does his ski yaw so much?

2, it almost seems like he is lifting the wrong side hip, with his leg drive side extending the hip should, to my understanding drop, the opposite should lift, yet his ski tilts away from the drive side as though he does the opposite.

As we have seen, many variations in techniques between paddlers.

What really helped my stroke was to remember to keep in the momentary pause or glide just before the catch. It gives a good wind-up for an explosive catch and helps you get your body in the right position.

For Comparison

When contemplating how shitty my downwinding stroke is, this is the video I think of. Oscar is all over the map. But it's easy to see his leg drive. His top hand may be low, but he swings it right over the opposite gunnel. When he really needs power, you can bet he plants that blade forward and deep. I'll bet that fat bastard has broken a few blades in his life. He looks really powerful.

And holy crap is that double flying. Those swells are big. He makes it look so easy.

vimeo.com/18453594

Thanks to all for the informative comments and the super videos.

Look at 0.48-0.56 secs and 1:20-1: 30 secs.

Now look at 1:26 and freeze. Look how far out that blade is. That's where I know I get my stability in the rough. Though he's yawing to the left (flat water who cares), in the rough I know because my heels are planted and at that point my right heel is driving, the weight is off my left arse-bone. Try that now in your chair with your feet off the deck and your left arse bone will go down (boat lean left). Put your right foot on the floor and do the same thing - feel the difference.

Paddling this way for me with high top hand sweeping across my face-shoulders with torso twist and legs (mainly power leg) pushing me back has increased stability in rough enormously and consistently.

To explain Zolts' yaw I think it comes from big power delivery, putting the watts in with each stroke possibly accentuating that. My two-bob's worth. Brilliant clip though.

One I can't go past though in a K1 is Tim Bramants training 2007, cited here before I think. When I paste there is a huge space (I'm editing now), I hope the clip appears in that space. If not just add http:// to the following:
.

I like the way Poulson paddles. Just watching most other sprinters makes my shoulders ache. I know I can not do high hands technique long distance. Poulson's stroke looks comfortable and easier on the rotator cuff.

I agree Zachhandler, I've watched quite a few of Rene Poulsons video's now and I also prefer his technique, its what I would describe a more bio mechanical friendly technique and one I try to replicate. Its not common, but works for him and works for me, although he has has a little more success with it than I have.

that's the first Oscar video i'va ever seen that provided insight as to why he's so bad ass. Usually I am finding myself nitpicking his stroke from the third person perspective, perhaps to my detriment. When you travel along with him for the ride then you are privy to his decision making process downwind, which is uncanny. He does indeed make this generous swell look easy b/c he doesn't waste unnecessary energy and he really exhibits trust inn the ocean and ski and himself that only comes from gargantuan amounts of experience. consider me to be an acolyte.