Wing Paddle questions

I hardly ever post on this site. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate Wesley's reviews and willingness to help people like me with questions. I don't know what kayakchampeen's problems with him might be, but showing a little respect for a fellow paddler can't be a bad thing. Save the aggression for the race course. That said, I appreciate the obvious depth of knowledge that kayakchampeen has to offer. "Can't we all get along?"

Ken

Thanks Wesley for your help and all your hard work (though kinda fun work ) testing equipment and writing reviews.

You also helped me out a lot a few years ago when I was looking for a ski.

While I enjoy technical analysis, I also enjoy hearing how the equipment "feels" in real life rough water conditions. I especially enjoy that your reviews consider the paddlers who unfortunately do not have the time/location to paddle as frequently as they would like.

As for not posting my name...more than anything its a misplaced fear that Zuckerberg & Friends are taking over the world one piece of personal information at a time.

Jokes aside, I thankfully don't have the clout or desire to criticize anyone here. But I am sorry my topic made some waves. It has also generated some very helpful info, thanks guys.

.

"in franklins tower there hang's a bell..." grateful dead

Another lurker coming out.
I bought my first wing paddle a few weeks before Wesley's article came out, and was frustrated at how little general advice is on the web. Perhaps Kayakchampeen would be willing to write a full article?
Dave Hunter in NZ has an interesting article, which seems to come down to 'if stability is an issue, use a parallel-edge blade'.
home.clear.net.nz/pages/racersedge/Paddles.htm
and another version with more words and no diagrams: www.sportzhub.com/newsgroups/index.php?topic=2550.0;wap2

Well after giving it a great deal of consideration, and accounting for the responses from other forum members, I have decided that my frustration with the dearth of info on available paddles got the better of me and for some inexplicable reason i decided to unload on Wesley, as his site is one that's referenced alot during these discussions, and must have seemed like a valid target for criticism. That said, I should definitely have stopped short of personal innuendo or name calling, as it really doesn't help foster a greater understanding of anything and reflects poorly on me. It has become evident to me that he must be a pretty conscientious guy, who has a genuine love for ski paddling. If his experience doesn't jibe with mine, or I if I think his review was less than scientific, is really not a valid reason to bag on someone I know very little about. Those who know me know that it is not my nature to apologize very often, but I'm man enough to know that there are repercussions to such behavior, even on a internet forum, and so I would like to sincerely apologize to Wesley, the forum moderator (Robin) and the rest of the community who were undoubtedly taken aback by my vehemence. I'll take this lesson to heart and if I have more to add, I'll keep it on topic and not make it personal. Thank you tho those whose sage comments gave me pause to relect on how callow I was being..

Excellent information there, Franklin. Please keep it up. But you may be best served by leaving out references to the other guy… references to him just serve to give him credit where many in his waters believe little is due.

Doug, my name is Wesley Echols, SurfskiRacing.com and Stellar. I am the other guy in your post Franklin is not to mention.

You should let the forum know that you are an Epic guy. Most paddlers are so "done with the Stellar Vs Epic saga". I suggest you move on as well. If you can't and I know there are many who can't, then keep attacking me. I have developed even broader shoulders and thick skin over the past 3 years, even more than I had before. It comes with the territory.

So I will continue to help other paddlers with good information and suggest to them the appropiate boat that meets there needs if they ask. It very well could be a Stellar and I hope it is or it could be a Huki,Think, Nelo, Fenn, Epic, etc. I let them choose. Options are good for paddlers. My reputation stands for itself long before you got your V12 and I got my Stellars.

Wesley

Thanks guys for this beneficial discussion. I think the debate over the type, source, purpose, and audience for information is valuable. However, I hope we can keep the remaining posts in this topic strictly related to wing paddle characteristics, feel, and performance.

Franklin has apologized, and many members have come to support Wesley. I certainly do not want this to derail into an Epic vs. Stellar battle

With the help of Wesley and Franklin (and several other helpful people) I decided to get the Jantex Gamma Mid. Both for its feel in rough water, and its power derived through low drag at speed. (I am definitely more of high intensity aerobic speed guy, than an anaerobic power, maybe one day, haha.)

Wesley, Wesley, Wesley. I do have an Epic, along with three other boats of different brands, all having merits and faults. Ah shucks, Wesley, I don't have to explain myself to you. It sounds like you have some patches of really thin, irritated skin. Have those paddlers in New England waters rubbed you all the wrong way? And you them.

Seems as though the "Tall Poppy" syndrome as we call it in Australian is not just a phenomenon here.

Much like me, Wes is someone who had the drive and means to paddle and share his experience, only in Wesley's case he was able to afford to buy and turn over more ski's than most in his quest to understand what makes a good ski for what conditions.

His reviews and charts are to my mind a wealth of information and I was sorry when he became a dealer, not for Wes but for the what was lost to the surfski community.

As far as paddles go I have no idea, I listen to those who have paddled competitively their whole lives and tell me this is a good paddle.

As a novice paddler I have been visiting this site now for a year soaking up the shared experiences, knowledge and banter . It has been of great assistance to me and has absolutely accelerated my learning curve.
I have been smiling to myself as I read the endless debate on boat and paddle design, as a surfboard rider for the past 45 years it reminds me of the endless beach car park debates that revolved around board design, nose, tail rocker ,rail shape, fin design , fin placement, length, width, glass weight and layup, which pub served the best beer, which beach had the best looking girls.
Different designs were passionately defended and. Promoted by guys who had made surfing a part of their life journey. I see the same passion here the only difference being nobody felt the need to insult those who didn't share his views. In the car park insults only lead to getting your rear end kicked, hence the respect that surfers showed each other as acknowledgement that they were part of the surfing tribe. It would be nice to see that here.

It doesn't matter what forum you visit, these things are the same.
Yes I have read a few surfing ones too and the spats still break out.
It's the nature of the online forum that much of the communication that normally takes place in a conversation is lost when it is simply posted online.
Things are taken out of context, those with soft skins feel like they have been attacked, and simply taking the piss out of somebody with smiles all round that you may innocently do in the car park after a paddle is a major flame war.

Nobody can post knowing the preconceptions of all those who will read.
Surfing is no different.

Until we all learn to be mind readers and excellent scribes, just know that somebody will get upset at almost anything you can post.

Back on topic:

This is a good thread because it has given me something to think about.
Our paddle expert mentioned that what was liked about the Gamma, was the timing of it's power phase.

This is something that I am seriously interested in, as if I can increase my cadence, yet not loose any hookup through the main power phase and have it all co-ordinated to suit my build, stroke mechanics, I have much to gain.

Pleas elaborate if you care to.

Rightarmbad,

I think before, you mentioned I difference in the ideal depth of the stroke between traditional flatwater wings and the shorter teardrop wings. Is this simply related to the length of the blade? or should the teardrops (or semi-teardrops) be paddled at a shorter length.

I am wondering because, I got the Jantex Gamma Mid at 210-220 cm (figured I could cut it down later, but not make it longer)

I am 5 11' (but with short legs).(I've kinda been wondering why all the length guides, and epic paddle wizard use standing height rather than sitting height) I have some friends that would need longer ski poles but a shorter paddle than me

Franklin, good on you for apologising to Wes E. for blasting him on his review. You obviously know what you're talking about and it was a good read. I never interpreted Wes E's reviews on paddles (or craft for that matter) as a clear, concise work on the origin or technical specs on the wing paddle.

It was more a thing of 'how it feels' to paddler Joe out there and on that you cant fault any review. At least someone tried a spread of products and put his thoughts on paper.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Wes in Gloucester last year and can assure you this guy's passion for the sport far outweighs his interest in selling you a Stellar product.

Doug - 'references to him just serve to give him credit where many in his waters believe little is due.' - you're a joke.

Big Brother (aka Rob M) - How about a moderating rule. If you refer to someone in a derogatory manner - you get booted off for 2 months (obviously calling someone a joke, or saying that one looks like another doesn't count).

(Caveat - I don't own a Stellar or Epic, neither am I related to Wes E, Franklin, Doug or Rob M - whom, by the way, bears an uncanny resemblance to Mike Zoetmulder).

Cheers

S.S.

If you refer to someone in a derogatory manner - you get booted off for 2 months

I've barely enough time to read the posts, let alone run a sin-bin...!

Good on Franklin for having the guts a) to say who he is and b) to apologise.

This kind of stuff doesn't happen too often - RAB came in for some flak recently, and now Franklin... But in both cases with a little input from others, things have calmed down. I'd rather keep it like that; I haven't ever banned anyone from the forum and I'd prefer to maintain that record.

I've been moderating forums of one kind or another for nearly 20 years and I've found that given a decent set of individuals, although it's inevitable that flare-ups will occur, things usually sort themselves out without any heavy handedness on the part of the moderator. Let's try to keep it like that... I like to think that we're a big international family (nearly 20,000 of you come online most months).

Cheers
Big Bro - and I don't look at all like the Zoet....

Zep, here's my theory based on the paddles I've tried and me trying to come to grips with the physics of it all.
These are my generalisations.

A more parallel longer type of blade uses more vertical motion throughout the stroke, goes deeper overall so needs to be longer but also requires more twist to get it to come out of the water clean from being so deep.
Both lengthwise and sideways aspects of the blade are used as a wing in combination throughout the stroke.
The stroke is reasonably narrow.

A teardrop that carries most of it's area near the end has a more outward trajectory with very little depth beyond the length of the blade.
It acts as a wing in the direction of the width of the blade only.
(within reason)
Now seeing as the shorter working surface of the teardrop has to transition from the start of the stroke to the end just like other blades, it still requires a twist but because of the shortness it may seem to twist more as it twists over a smaller distance, if you get what I mean.
It's overall twist will probably be less because it exits from a shallower position than a long parallel blade, but will 'appear' to be more severe.

Does that make sense?


No doubt there will be paddles that don't adhere to that reasoning due to other factors not considered in my simplistic model, but it rings true for most of the paddles I have tried.

I think that most teardrop paddles should be run well under 210cm for most folk, it's just that they have not been brave enough to try it, or their paddles wouldn't go that short because most tend to get a 210 to 220 cm paddle on the advice of others and retailers generally stocked this length.
I think you may find 208 to 213 for the more parallel blades for surf ski.

I happily run my semi teardrop Epic wing at 205cm.
I only just submerge the blade and have a very outward stroke with very little vertical motion.
This suits me as I like to have a lot of body rotation to the point of my but sliding on the seat.
I don't carry enough upper body musculature to sit and twist my spine, I need to engage my lower body as much as possible.

This combined with my long arms gives me a very long stroke even though I run a super short paddle.

I'm still looking for ways to up my tempo as I am simply not strong enough to paddle at a low cadence, hence the interest in the power timing suggested above.
If I can move through the less propulsive parts of the action quicker but still line up the main power phase with my legs, I can up my rating and run a higher heart rate and produce more power.
So I have been interested in a Gamma for a while now, I may just get one and try it out sight unseen.

I so wish I could walk into a shop and find all the various paddles lined up side by side and not just go by what various people say and recommend I should use, even when they have a totally different build and energy system to me.

So quick sum up:

Teardrop; short paddle, shallow sideways stroke.
Parallel; longer paddle, deeper closer stroke.

Depends on how you are built as to what style suits you, as well as the boat, as a shorter K1 type boat is very sensitive to the larger sideways motion of a teardrop because the power is applied at a further distance from the hull and will upset the running more.
This can somewhat be negated if the paddle has a very quick catch.

Just to add a bit more:

(and to annoy my detractors that say I have no idea and post too much, because they basically can't understand what I say )

For me, I find that teardrop or semi-teardrop paddles have a solid catch, as I quickly move the paddle outwards and the wing establishes flow early.
I find the parallel blades require much more care with the catch as I like to move the blade outwards, but they require an initial downward and outward movement to hook up solidly.

So I find my natural stroke gives me a solid catch for a teardrop and a more wooly/careful catch for a parallel.
With care, I can adapt to the parallel, but I figure if my body works naturally with a teardrop, why fight it.

Haven't had a stoush this good since Dean V Dane, RAB V everyone.
I think Wesley should console himself by buying another boat and rearranging his garage. Doug should be asked to return his surfski and go back to shooting bear. Alternatively he should be asked to give the opening address at the next Socialist Party annual conference and donate money to a new facility for the needy and homeless.
Of the 20,000 hits last month I reckon 19,950 wouldn't know or care where New England or Virginia is.