v12, Uno, Fenn Elite, SES SEL and SE

Time to get serious
Had a Green 7 but found it too tippy in crappy chop (1m to 2m), so I got a cheap Stealth Strika for those conditions and its actually pretty good at those conditions. Not real slow either.
Came into some extra funds so its time to get a new fast beast.
I can get my hands on the following boats all at about the same price. Some new some 2nd hand.
Im 5`11`` tall
31 inch inseam
80/85kg plus gear
Small bum.

The new boats
SEL sport 15/16kg
SES sport 15/16kg

The 2nd hand
Uno carbon 12kg
Fenn Elite carbon 12kg
V12 performance (too pricy but its on the list)15/16kg
SE ultra. 12kg

Flatwater, smooth and no wind
So flat out speed whats the fastest, in a quick sprint
fastest over say 200,500/1000m
fastest over long distances
Best glide for the long distances

Ability to hand small chop reasonably comfortably
Need the good/bad info for my weight leg length
Why I should get one over the others.

Cheers
Gnome

With the bailer closed, a V12 performance is about 3 seconds per 500m faster than my same layup V10.
It is also heavier.
Virtually the same speed if I plug the drain and fit a smaller weedless rudder to my V10.
In Aussie, the V12 comes with a surf rudder not the universal one.

I too have simply crossed off Epic as a new boat due to pricing.

I like the SES and it is a very efficient boat between 11.5 and 14.5 kmh, above that the short length comes into play.

Limited testing (very) for me showed the SE to have the fastest flatout top speed out of SE,SES,Uno Max.
But man what a strange bucket.

Out of the list you supplied, I would suspect the Uno carbon to be most suitable for what you intend to do.
My reasoning being weight/length/rocker.

I suspect if you could get a red tip V12 or lighter, it would be better.
To me at 85kg or so, the V12 and V10 feel as stable as each other on flatwater.
The V12 getting a little more nervous but with higher secondary stability as the wiggly water sets in.

Out of the Stellar options I think the SEL is worth a look, gets very favourable reviews for stability, I have the SES but if I was to get another ski I would have a very close look at the SEL.

If you struggled in the green 7 I think you'll find the v12 more difficult in side chop. The Uno will be the same in the carbon. Any boat with no rocker is going to be fast on the flat but hard work in sidechop. I've never paddled an elite but would imagine it to be more stable than the other boats.
The SE is a stable boat, but needs a surf rudder to stop it wandering.
Weird bucket, but you do get used to it. Surprisingly quick. A couple of years ago I remember one of these winning a dash for cash in pretty lumpy sideshore against some good paddlers.
The SES is quick but still a bit twitchy. Probably less than the bigger boats.
If you could take the bucket from the green 7 or v12 and put it in the SE, you'd have a winner. The SE is great value for money, even better secondhand......did I mention the bucket.

Um, his words were;

.......'flat water, smooth and no wind'..............

For pure flatwater racing for the advanced paddler,I would go with Carbon Uno knowing the limits of its stability in true ocean conditions for most of us who are not elite paddlers. i had kevlar uno for 2 years and loved the fit and performance but in rough conditions it was too much for me and it was more difficult to remount than most if not all the HPS. But it sounds like you are having stability concerns already since u are struggling with green 7 so while you crave speed, stability is 1st and hopefully you are honest with yourself about your skill level.

If you can fit in the SES, demo an Ultra/Excel SES at 21-26lbs and you can paddle on the flat and in the ocean and get the best of both worlds. The sport layups for flatwater racing in my opinion is heavy if this is where you are primarly going to train. you will enjoy it in the chop at those weights but I don't think you will realize the boat speeds on flatwater unless cost is you primary consideration.

If you want one of the best all around skis the SEL should be included in the lightest layup you can afford. the bucket is different from the SE. there is a 9in rudder which is a improvement over the 8inch for big conditions. I have only used the 4inch rudder in New England conditions since we rarely get over 3ft seas, and most of the rough water we get is chop. I will be adding the SEL excel, SEL ultra(get in few weeks), Evo1 carbon, new Stellar 18S to my chart in a few weeks.

if you can demo the SE ultra and like the bucket, many do and some don't, it is an excellent choice for all around racing. it feels like a big ski and is for big guys so i am setting your expectation now. it has the same hull as the SEL but wider catch, bigger volume, and he seat is different. Its flatwater speed is very good but is not faster than carbon Uno. At some point I hope to get an uno max to add to my chart. i wish someone had one here in new england, usa.

RAB..... "ability to handle small chop reasonably comfortably"

I think the confusion is that there are two buckets in existance for the SE. The older one was nearly vertical at the back and not to everyones liking. The newer bucket looks similar to the SEL to me but i have not sat in this one.

For me the UNO Max CGtech was faster then the UNO in flatwater but to much work in the bump for my limited paddling.

Being 85-90kg the extra volume seem to make the uno max sit on top of the water compared to the Uno, the extra speed was prob aided by being a bit more stable as well.

Gnome, I paddle an Uno Max (never been in an Uno yet)and love it. I'm also 5 '11 and 81 kg. The seat is exceptionally comfortable and has a great bum/foot set up(no numb feet). And yes, it's fast, but honestly, ALL the elite skis are fast in the right hands. So get what fits and feels best.
You don't have a Carbonolology Atom on your list. See the reviews, but if I only paddled on windless, smooth, flat water then that ski is hard to beat for sheer speed.
It's top of my shoppng list if I ever inherit anything.

Mrak makes a good point with the max. More stable than the uno. Think make beautiful boats, very comfortable. The best thing is the huge range of rudders. Putting a 4 inch rudder on a max will make it as fast as anything on the flat. You can then get a large surf rudder for the choppy days and cover your bases. The thinks are usually fairly easy to remount as well.

The atom is a rocket of a boat, but the single most difficult thing to remount in the history of the world. Once again, get a more stable boat ie a Vault and use a 4inch rudder on the flat. AR convert has just done a race with, I presume, this setup. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on stability and speeds. I am sure he paddled in tandem with an atom.

With regards to the Carbonology Atom, my brother got one after having had a Fenn Elite. The ski is very quick, but also very twitchy, and in flat water my brother is significantly faster than he was on his Elite. He battles when it gets bumpy though, and has had quite a few swims. He seems to be able to remount it OK. Its a small ski, so probably more suited to paddlers less than about 80 kg.

Hi Guys
Thanks heaps for the advice.
I didnt put the Atom on the list cause just like the Epics new or xdemo's they are rediculasly expensive. The ones I listed are in my budget, and more local no freight risk or expense required. I would like the Elite and Uno in the light weight as the heavy ones always feel slugish and over long distances its a lot more mass to keep moving on each stroke.
Gnome

superted wrote:
For me the UNO Max CGtech was faster then the UNO in flatwater but to much work in the bump for my limited paddling.

If anything, the reverse is the case, but it really is a very small difference, almost nothing in the grand scheme of things.

The Uno Max in the ocean is a different beast to the Uno, and has been designed as so. Here's a file to my paddle today, the first 10km were done in 35 mins on an Uno Max Elite. It surfs well, changes direction easily... but don't take my word for it, try it yourself. The Uno Max is engineered to be more stable than the Uno.

connect.garmin.com/activity/155599982

I have the SE with the squarer seat (older style), stellar now do the SE with a newer rounded back seat. More traditional style. I liked the older style better but horses for courses.

Depending on your body frame, at 85kg you may find the SE too big. I have a couple of mates at that range and they constantly hit the side of the boat at the catch as their shoulders aren't that wide whereas I'm 6'3" and 115kg so I have a much larger frame.

As everyone suggests, try as many as you can and choose whats most comfortable as i would argue comfort and ability to deliver all your power into the stroke can make up for a faster ski that you can balance in properly.

Gnome "Had a Green 7 but found it too tippy in crappy chop" & Dicko "If you struggled in the green 7 I think you'll find the v12 more difficult in side chop"

I had the reverse experience. Had a glass Red 7 (pro) and now have a v12 (ultra) and find the latter way more stable than the 7. Most importantly I really struggled for balance on the red 7 when side on or into swell. The smallest side chop would throw me off balance. I find the v12 remarkably stable under most conditions (with a raised seat).

S.S.

S.S.: Define your raised seat on your V12-U... I've been thinking of doing the same on my V12-U. What did you do to raise it? I do not want to put padding on the seat due to the rotational friction it would cause. Reduced transverse stability is not much of a concern; I weigh 93 kg, 182cm tall. Would really like to get my arse higher than my heels. Could help with ergonomics and speed. At least like to experiment with it.
Thanks
-Doug

Doug, I had hip pinch from the deep bucket in the red 7 (rounded at bottom) and after speaking with Erik Borgnes (a doctor and very competent paddler in the US that understands human physiology and paddling mechanics*) for some time he recommended that I raise the seating position to have a flatter sitting surface. I made contact with Jamii Hamlin (an industrial designer (?) from Cape Town) on this site who designed and makes detachable f/g seats for a surfski (similar to a k1 seat) but the bottom has foam padding that follows the contour of the surfski bucket (attaches with velcro - male in bucket of ski, female on bottom of seat). The net effect is that you are sitting on a flatter surface, raised about 1,5 - 2 inches (or as much as you'd like to chock it up) and because of the velcro can incline/decline the angle of the seat.

It sorted out the hip issues and it creates a good paddling position of being 'raised over your feet' and naturally leaning slightly forward - and yes when conditions get jobbly its real slippery and I curse Jamii under my breath - but for most I'm fine (haven't got the best balance to start off with anyway - and am a comfortable remounter in those conditions if I get tossed). If its real bad out there I tend to take the seat out and go with a thinner Lincke seat pad.

The seat worked real well and sorted out my hip issues. Started paddling the v12 without the seat - very comfortable bucket - but ended up putting the seat in again as I really like the raised position.

Hope that helps.

*obviously not as well as RAB understands it

quote: "it creates a good paddling position of being 'raised over your feet' and naturally leaning slightly forward"


mmmmmmm.......all the THINK boats already have a seat like this!!

Try our beautiful beast the Uno max and see for yourself!!

I have been very interested in this thread since deciding I need a second ski for flat water racing.

My Hybrid Vault is like an extension of my body in any sort of conditions now, but I am looking to eek out a bit more speed on the flat only a full length ski with less rocker will give.

After briefly paddling Adam's Carbon Uno after training a couple of weeks ago I was glad to see Wesley agreed on my thoughts...

wesley wrote: For pure flatwater racing for the advanced paddler,I would go with Carbon Uno

The boat felt like it was on rails, you put some hard strokes in and it just kept on tracking dead straight.

Before pulling the trigger on one I am waiting to paddle a few other less common skis and in any case I may have just crueled my chances of picking one up second hand by posting this

Regarding the Stellars... I'd agree that the SE is a bigger person's boat. The SE-L is more like an an European cut shirt-slim, and tapered-smile. The SE-L's bucket's sides are more vertical, while the SE's slopes upward and outward. Interestingly, with a Lincke pad in the SE bucket, I had to pad the sides out to get adequate hip purchase, but after pulling out the pad, my arse dropped down deeper into the bucket and Voila! much more control-rock solid stability, and no real loss of ergonomic efficiency or comfort. Funny how that little bit can make all the difference.