How good are Stellar skis

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12 years 11 months ago #3841 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
Hi,
That would be nice if that were the truth(price). The Stellar here in Aus is not much cheaper, maybe they think us Aussies are dumb and will pay for a near full price (Epic) for a copy. I will never buy one due to one significant flaw!:dry:
Regards
Wally

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12 years 11 months ago #3842 by SCpaddler
Hi
One of Stella's selling points for its range of Surf Skis is affordability but I can't seem to find any prices on any of their web sites. Could someone enlighten me on what their range of skis cost.

Wally I would also like to know what this one significant flaw is.

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12 years 11 months ago - 12 years 11 months ago #3843 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
When I phoned to ask, the base glass model was $1995, the next level 15kg was $2995, the next carbon model was $3995 or something like that. How can anyone can say $1995 for a new boat isn't cheap? I know its 18kg and all that but that was the weight of my xt and my surf 70. It is also less than a new plastic molokai. For a new paddler or someone strapped for cash, why spend $2300 on a used v10 or mako 6, which in Western Australia are as scarce as hens teeth.
Last edit: 12 years 11 months ago by Dicko.

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12 years 11 months ago #3844 by Wally
Replied by Wally on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
Hi,

The price I was told was only 10% cheaper in the construction I was asking about. If you want to sell on price, 10% on launch is not what I would call cheap and then from a designer I have never heard of, the risk is to great for only a small saving. Sorry for the rash statement I was refering to the cheap skis available.

Regards

Wally

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12 years 11 months ago #3845 by adman1
Replied by adman1 on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
I paddled an Fenn Elite today and I believe the Stellar to have equal or even slightly better speed through the water, although it?s hard to quantify given the conditions that I paddled the Stellar in, but it?s just a gut feel.


In terms of primary stability, again much the same. In terms of secondary stability the Stellar is all over the Elite, it has fantastic secondary and I believe it is this characteristic that will sell the ski. Lots of other skis have similar secondary stability,as an example the xt, but nothing comes close to the same speed through the water as the Stellar.My observation on the hull cross sectional design is this, the Stellar has a very small underwater profile giving it impressive speed through the water. Above the waterline (freeboard) the hull widens somewhat. In essence this works to provide a fantastic secondary stability if needed, and as a mid pack paddler, I felt that I could comfortably paddle the boat very upright and very fast.

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12 years 11 months ago #3849 by StuartXpat
Replied by StuartXpat on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
I consider $1100 reasonable for a glass ski. Somebody seems to be making a bit of excess cash somewhere.

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12 years 11 months ago #3850 by AdamV10L
In reference to Dico's comments, a 15kg Stellar is $2995!
The heaviest layup Epic also weiging 15kg costs $2,750 in Australia.
The comparisons based on weight are simmilar as you go up the price range.
That is up one level of Stellar to be comparable to the Epic.
So they are not cheaper at all for comparative weights.
Unless of course you want an entry level 18kg ski as Epic do not have a ski that heavy.

adman1,

If you can get a hold of a V10 or V12 to compare against the Fenn Elite you will also notice similar or possibly greater (in the case of the V12) speed with far greater secondary stabillity which will suit mid packers well.
The V12 in fact has a noticably better secondary than the V10.

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12 years 11 months ago #3852 by DarylRemmler
It's easy to create a similar ski, and make it look kind of reasonably different (see Zedtech), yet Stellar apparently went to great lengths to create a new standard, and made it look like a copy. It must be genius, but I'm too simple to see it:)

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12 years 11 months ago #3853 by YBA/Jim Murray
The genius, or luck, seems to be in gaining all this free publicity and nothing to do with a new boat design.
I suppose the best boat (and paddle) will be, as always, the one with the best performing paddler.
Perhaps important performance standards not mentioned here should be quality control in the manufacture, durability, and dealer service/support after purchase.
Determination of a boat purchase by perceived price and/or a subjective critique will surely lead to grief.
This thread has been fun but as I said in the other thread "if it looks and walks like a goose......."
Jim

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12 years 10 months ago #3854 by DarylRemmler
Absolutely! Asking Stellar to tell us the story is like asking them to submit an advertorial.
Stupid ... sorry ... I mean Stellar has certainly done that.
Look at pretty much every other brand in existance (or past), and you will see a history of one model per year on average introduced. Yes, there are excepetions I know.
New brands come to market, and some copying of ideas occur. An orignal idea is pretty rare these days. I`m fine with that. I just don't like it when someone is a poser, and I'm seeing a stellar job of that right now.

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12 years 10 months ago #3855 by wesley
Replied by wesley on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
Chris and I are doing a flatwater race on Sunday in Hadley, Massachusetts which is close to where David Thomas lives. I contacted Dave via email and both of us will have the opportunity to paddle the Elite version in glass on Sunday. So I will be able to comment on this version and meet David. I will be interested having owned/reviewed/paddled/ every ski in the U.S. market, how it compares to the others. Wesley(Surfskiracing.com)

Wesley Echols
SurfskiRacing.com
#1 in Surfski Reviews.

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12 years 10 months ago - 12 years 10 months ago #3856 by Boof Head

I just don't like it when someone is a poser, and I'm seeing a stellar job of that right now.


Unless I've misinterpreted, Stellar didn't initiate this thread and their comprehensive post was in response to Rob's request for info and enlightenment.

As Dicko pointed out, its very easy to wack a few basic parameters into some boatbuilding software and come up with similar hulls. I've done it myself and the hydrostatics of my design are all within the published hydrostatics of a Fenn or Epic V10. Hope to build shortly. Probably time for some to accept that at this stage the modern surfski hull design is hard to improve and I'm a bit suspicious of the motives of some of the finger pointers amongst us, some vested interests perhaps.
Last edit: 12 years 10 months ago by [email protected]. Reason: fix the quote - missing tag

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12 years 10 months ago #3857 by [email protected]

Asking Stellar to tell us the story is like asking them to submit an advertorial.


But we can't have a situation where accusations are made and the person on the receiving end is not allowed to respond to them!

The purpose of this site and this forum is to exchange information. It's hardly surprising that someone wanting to find out about a new product should post to the forum.

Given the controversial origin of the ski (produced by Flying Eagle who used to manufacture the Epic boats; and who are now in a court case with Epic; and who retain moulds, plugs, drawings, materials) it's hardly surprising that someone should raise this issue.

And that's what happened. The first post asked about the ski; the second asked about Flying Eagle and Epic.

So we did some research, discovered facts about the designers of the skis, and about who owns/runs Stellar (CEO is Frank Xiang, the CEO of Flying Eagle).

On the face of it, it did look pretty dodgy, so I sent them an email challenging them with some pretty hard questions. It would be unfair and irresponsible of me not to given their reply a public airing.

But if you read through this thread, you can see all the facts for yourself, see what Stellar have to say, and you can make up your mind for yourself.

And that's all we can do - make every effort to discover facts and then publish them for people to make an informed decision.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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12 years 10 months ago #3858 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
As I see it Epic went to flying eagle for 2 reasons, cost and laminating technology. They were one of the leading manufacturers of racing hulls and have some of the leading hull designers in the world working with them. It's not inconceivable that these people can make a surfski.
Epic and FE have a falling out and flying eagle have legitimate concerns about their laminating technology being used and staff being poached. The laminating and finish is what has made Epic boats stand out, so fair enough.

The price of the glass base model is definitely cheap. The 15kg model isn't cheap (buy a surf 70 pro). The $4000 carbon model is cheap. In WA second hand carbon v10's are selling for more than that. Competition in the marketplace is important. Thats what will make boats better and cheaper. The more players the better I say.

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12 years 10 months ago #3859 by Boyan
Replied by Boyan on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
hey Dicko,
I am glad that there are people so active in this discussion but I really wish they weren't spreading information that is not of their competence. Greg Barton worked with Ted Van Dusen in USA in the 1980s when he became one of the top paddlers in the world. The laminating techniques used by Ted Van Dusen when Eagle K1 was manufactured were never secret to Greg Barton and that lay up as you may guess was Pre-impregnated glass or carbon with honeycomb core. Those boats were cured in big ovens at the required temperature for the required duration of time to make the best kayak construction the world have seen so far. Later many manufacturers started using that technique and now pretty much any kayak builder could use the materials we have if they want to achieve high construction standard. Epic Kayaks chose Flying Eagle because they had all the tools necessary to manufacture boats according to what Greg and Ted knew long before they heard of our fellow Chinese manufacturer. Epic Kayaks didn't leave because "they learned the technology" they left because they couldn't achieve the high production standard set as main goal. Yes, Wintech has many problems in the production quality which was the main reason the idea of kayak project wasn't that attractive to all people involved in the company. Epic Kayaks had to employ 3 additional staff members to try to tackle quality issues at the factory and they still didn't manage to stop the madness where specific components and bonding materials were suddenly replaced with cheaper versions and still billed as if original materials were used. I urge people again to please not speculate spreading untruthful information. As I said earlier in this topic we have already made so many changes to the kayaks we used to produce in Flying Eagle that I see no reason to worry about boats that look a bit like ours but on the inside are very very different. Of course if someone is after a sexy looking foot brace center rail, pointed tail and really nice venturi system they should go ahead and get one of those surfskis without trying to be competent in something they know nothing about.
Keep Well and Keep Punching!!!
Boyan

Epic Kayaks Europe
Regional Manager
Marketing and Distribution

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12 years 10 months ago #3860 by YBA/Jim Murray
In response to Dicko, Boyan covered part of it.

I think (?) there was input into surfski design from Herman Chalupski, G. Barton, John Dixon. The Olympic boats are Van Dusen with mods by G. Barton. The sea kayaks have John Winters ideas all over them, I think. You can go back to the 1960s when Emil Maschek designed and built his TR2 that was something similar. That was a 14 foot river touring kayak that had great handling characteristics.
My points are that boat design is continually evolving and building on previous work, and over a long time period. One or two years in china will not do it for a whole fleet of boats. The guys at epic do know what they are doing without much, or any, input from China.
The Americans are mostly pretty good at what they do-except for the beer.
Jim

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12 years 10 months ago #3872 by adman1
Replied by adman1 on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
Heres some food for thought...At the Classic race held here in Perth w. Australia, Jesse Phillips won the sprint to the Fenn hot spot buoy ( about 1km )on a Stellar ski (11.5kg kevlar) against some world class paddlers.

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12 years 10 months ago #3873 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re:How good are Stellar skis
Actually saw a stellar today. Looks nothing like a v10 in my opinion. I would say it seemed wider.Build quality seemed excellent. My mate big Al won't fit into a v10 but did fit into the stellar. Apparently a stellar won the sprint in some pretty lumpy water. All I know is a couple of blokes in them passed me as I was struggling to stay upright. So the answer to the original question would be, reasonably quick and reasonably stable.

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12 years 10 months ago #3894 by SlowPoke
Having read through this thread one thing sticks out to me as odd.

It seems that surf ski design being influenced by one olympic type of boat designed for flat water sprint speed in the K1 kayak is readily accepted and crossing over from the construction of one boat class to the other is historical fact. But the idea of a manufacturer of another type of boat also used for flat water sprinting at an olympic level, crossing over to surf ski is considered improbable at best.
Surely rowing shell designers must have some ideas that are worthwhile even if it is only speed?

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12 years 10 months ago #3896 by [email protected]
Hello SlowPoke (gee I wish people would use their real names on the forum ;) )

Surely rowing shell designers must have some ideas that are worthwhile even if it is only speed?

Of course. My point was that surfski paddling has different requirements than any other discipline in terms of the craft - because we paddle in rough water and require boats that surf downwind. Designing for rough water is only partly a science - there's a healthy element of art in it too that requires intimate understanding and experience of the behaviour of boats in those conditions.

The likelihood of a designer from ANY other discipline (K1, sea kayak, rowing shell, whatever) being able to come up with a successful surfski design first go, without the benefit of surfski paddling experience is highly improbable.

Stellar responded to this point specifically when they said, "We have relied extensively on feedback from elite paddlers from around the world..."

Happy Paddling!
Rob

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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