Light weight v's heavy weight - speed difference

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7 years 5 months ago #24498 by Rob1
I know this has been discuss over the years however I want a defiant answer. Is there any speed difference between two indentical skis with the only difference being a heavy lay up and a light weight lay up. For example if a paddler paddled a light weight ski on 20k down wind would the same paddler have been any slower if he used the heavier lay up. I don't want to discuss the stability and etc of skis or different water conditions I understand all that. So is a 10kg v10/UNO max/fenn elite or whatever goIng to be any quicker then the heavier lay ups? Thanks

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7 years 5 months ago #24500 by owenw
Fact - A heavier boat (obviously) displaces more - for every extra kilo the boat displaces it means that the paddler has to push and extra kilo of water out of the way. Some will believe extra weight gives better/more glide, but that still will not overcome the extra effort to constantly move that extra volume of water. This is the reason in many sports (eg Olympic kayaking) they have minimum weight limits (and all the medal winners are paddling absolute minimum weight boats).

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself

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7 years 5 months ago - 7 years 5 months ago #24501 by Flowmaster
However, a carbon boat can feel les stable, so you might be faster with another layup, also while going downwind,a little momentum can be a good thing as wel. :woohoo:

...ooooO...................
...(.......)......Ooooo....
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JUST LEAVE FOOTPRINTS
Last edit: 7 years 5 months ago by Flowmaster.

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7 years 5 months ago #24502 by Joseph
G' Day

Pointless stuff Depending on conditions at sea Both will work well depending were you play, yes Flat Ug! Water conditions Light is might for a fast pick up on a short sprint, but 2 to 4ft. beach break 20 + kt. air going off the beach a bit of weight is a good thing.

A big windy down hill run in slop and chop a 39lb spec ski with a good driver will hang in with a Lighter ski and have a more stable fun run we see it here on the Gulf of Mexico, in fact most here have gotten rid of there 22/24 lb. Ski's and pick 28/32 lb. boats for winter runs. It seems few today use what the Surf Ski was made to do Paddle on open water in any condition the driver has the talent to play on. On the flat with short sprints a K-1 or a one man Shell will do in most if not all Ski's at any weight, So why a Ski for the Flat at all? it has always been a wonder to us who have been on Ski's on open water for 20/30 + years were the sport is heading with Most Surf Ski racing today on bays, rivers, swamps, and no water creeks being popular in the U.S.

I would not call that much of a sport to watch would any one, look my Dear how fast he is going I'll bet he may be doing 7 m.p.h. were a day on a run most time is a 9/21 m.p.h. Day so if young and the Young do make the sport, were would you rather be? remember The Surf Ski Do Rule the Sea. :silly:

Cheers Joseph

Joseph

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7 years 5 months ago - 7 years 5 months ago #24507 by AR_convert
Light weight will always trump heavy weight, unless as stated, you change materials used which alters the stiffness of the boat. If you are built like a tank and have the engine to keep accelerating an 18-20kg boat onto runs you may not be any quicker than in a 15kg boat, but it will take more energy to keep accelerating that boat onto runs.


Joseph wrote: So why a Ski for the Flat at all? it has always been a wonder to us who have been on Ski's on open water for 20/30 + years were the sport is heading with Most Surf Ski racing today on bays, rivers, swamps, and no water creeks being popular in the U.S.


Here's just a few reasons why

1) Affordability - if you can only afford one nice composite boat, why not have something that will do both ocean and river
2) Stability, in the speed versus stability equation skis win every time
3) Length - a lot of ski's run really well on flat water due to their length
4) Safety - falling out of a K1/Kayak hundreds of metres from shore in a river/lake/estuary can be not only hard work to get to shore, but in the right temperatures dangerous. Ski's for obvious reasons are safer.

While I'm a K1 convert for Marathon river racing, most of our racers here in Australia use ski's. Often they start on skis and as their skill and competitive level increases they will add a K1 or a longer version of a K1 called a multisport kayak to their collection.

When I go on holiday I take a ski, I know regardless of the weather or what waterway there is to paddle on, I can do it in a ski, not so for a K1.

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 7 years 5 months ago by AR_convert.

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7 years 5 months ago #24508 by red_pepper
Some of us also use skis on flat water because that's the water we have, and we like paddling skis! :) Plus they're safer, as AR_convert mentioned (going over in a fast current in a ski is much more recoverable than going over in an open kayak). Actually, you should welcome flat water (open water whenever I can get to it) ski paddlers: we add a lot of numbers to the market, increasing the ski options and reducing the cost. :)

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7 years 5 months ago #24509 by Rob1
I will ask the question again, i will keep it simply to understand so the topic doesn't get hijacked regarding stability, flat water, k1's etc. Paddling a 20k down wind in perfect conditions, will a heavy ski be slower than the lighter ski, same models?

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7 years 5 months ago - 7 years 5 months ago #24510 by Simon Haywood
.

Previous craft: Affinity, Endorfinn, Multisport, Epic V8, V10sport, V10, V12, Fenn Swordfish, Spirit PRS Elite; Stellar S18S, SR, SE, SEL, S2E, S2EL

Current Skis:
Huki S1-R
Stellar S18S - Excel
Stellar SR - Ultra


Skis on order: None!
Last edit: 7 years 5 months ago by Simon Haywood.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rob1

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7 years 5 months ago #24511 by owenw
Simple answer - the heavier ski will be slower! (Despite all the opinion etc, you cannot argue with simple physics.)

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself

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7 years 5 months ago #24513 by LaPerouseBay

Rob1 wrote: I will ask the question again, i will keep it simply to understand so the topic doesn't get hijacked regarding stability, flat water, k1's etc. Paddling a 20k down wind in perfect conditions, will a heavy ski be slower than the lighter ski, same models?


Yes, the heavier layup will have a lower average speed.

downwind dilettante

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7 years 5 months ago #24514 by Crossey
I think the answer you're after is on the front page of the site and boils down to a definite yes in theory but not necessarily in practice and not necessarily by as much as the impact of other factors.

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7 years 5 months ago #24515 by Dean Gardiner
I get asked this question all the time. The simple answer is no.
The reason for this is that if you are catching runs you cannot go any faster than the runs you are catching. No matter what the boat weighs if it can surf and fit into the available chop then it will be the same.
In smaller lake and river type runs then there would be an advantage in a lighter boat as you paddle over the top of the smaller runs.
In all cases the boat shape and "surfability" are more important than a few extra kilos.
In very big conditions there may even be a slight advantage in a slightly heavier boat but that is up to the individual.
Dead flat is another story.
The following user(s) said Thank You: YBA/Jim Murray

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7 years 5 months ago #24517 by joepaddler
Replied by joepaddler on topic Light weight v's heavy weight - speed difference
He definitely knows, for Dean set the Molokai record 18 years ago surfing the heaviest surfski to win it, which carried an extra 3 liters or more of seawater from a hole in the tail. He couldn't lift his own ski off the docks until all the sea water was drained from it.

Regarding physics, well, he proved what every 5th grade science student already knows: that the heavier object will glide further than a lighter identical or similar object, because it requires more resistance to stop it than the lighter one.

So, on a big windy downwind day, where it's honking, I'll take the cheap and heavy ski anytime over the more expensive lighter one.

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7 years 5 months ago #24524 by Joseph
G' Day,

Right you are friend, Dean G, should know and yes the fastest time was won on a leaky Kayak hull a pain in the A** to build and make a Ski out of I have been told that Bow was a Bit*h to build. I have had 3 of them and wish I had kept one as I age, one of the finest Big open water Safe Skis ever made.

New Age seems not to know this but at sea most speed is from years of doing and understanding how to work with the water, not junk you or what Boat you buy, or P.F.D. you are styling with. Surfers, Water Men, Life Saving people growing up with open water beach sport, years of Sailing on open water or paddling a Surf Ski it all takes years to learn to read water and how to use it when needed,
it my friends is an ""ART Form"" Not what Ski or paddle or how much money you spend.

One Oz Ski Trainer told us years ago work on your beach work with your Ski and Swimming for at least 5 years 3/4 days a week, learn to Relax in the condition at sea you want to be good at after that start to train to be an Open water flyer on a Surf Ski.

Open Water Ski use can not ever be learned reading a book or flat water paddling, what can be learned on the flat is great Tec, but for most that Tec, will not fly on the swell, high wind or chop at sea with changing sea conditions when you paddle unless that is what you do or Train on, after all that it still may be a Holy SH*T Day.

Some thing we hear very little about any longer and use to be asked, Can You Swim? but with few reading this crap what harm can it do? How about open water Ski Paddlers taking a Timed Swimming Test off the beach in and out of the surf for a few 100 ft. before being able to Paddle a Ski at all on open water, few we meet with ski's can Swim at all counting on that P.F.D. or G.G. and Mom to save them. How can any one say they love water sport and not swim well. Only :laugh: in America

Cheers Joseph, Just Living In the Real world

Joseph

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7 years 5 months ago #24540 by goofish
You kids get off my lawn!

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