Balance to your Training Week

More
12 years 1 month ago #5019 by MhojoNZ
Thanks for your detailed post and the various comments. I had a good chuckle reading your race commentaries, which were pretty close to the mark in a lot of ways. Of course racing involves a lot of tactics. In the Anaconda race we came around the point into a headwind which built rapidly as the race progressed. I was quickly caught up by a friend from the club who is a faster paddler than me on on a faster ski. I sat on his wash for quite a distance and we both decided to head inshore to get shelter from the headwind hoping to make up extra ground. In the end, as you say, I tired, couldn't quite match his pace and dropped back.

In the kayak marathon I got stuck at the start in a group of slow paddlers and decided to make a break but it took a lot more effort to catch up to the next group, hence the high heart-rate. I've never raced this distance before so had to make some guesses about fluids and calories. I find I can't take anything solid while racing but fluids go down well. I took 4.5l of electrolyte replacement and consumed the lot. This has 70g carbohydrate (300kcal) per litre which I understand is about as much as you can absorb per hour. And you are right about the slow pacing further on - having taken a swim out of the boat and lost my paddle I was well behind the main group and found it hard to push myself.

Since the last past I have been doing some more lactate testing at various heart rates. I'd be interested in your comments but realise this takes time, for which I would be happy to pay.
7/8 HR 132 Lac 1.9 (see previous post)
8/8 HR 144 Lac 2.7 connect.garmin.com/activity/43559087
17/8 HR 160ish Lac 4.7 ( not sure about the accuracy of this - went out in my steamer and proved a warm morning and overhealted very quickly - just couldn't seem to get my heart rate down) connect.garmin.com/activity/44898507
18/8 HR 150 Lac 3.5 connect.garmin.com/activity/45031951

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5020 by yhomas
Rightarmbad wrote:

My heart rates for bike, run, swim, paddling are so different from each other that it is a joke to think that any percentage formula can be applied to even get remotely near the optimum training efforts.

Example.
My max HR ever attained is 183bpm.

For running, my anaerobic threshold is 173bpm
My aerobic fat burning threshold is 157bpm.

On the bike, my anaerobic threshold is 168 and my aerobic fat threshold 153

Paddling, my anaerobic threshold is 158 and my aerobic fat threshold is 140.


Hi, I am getting to the discussion late. I am a mid-level paddler with precious little knowledge about proper heart rate training; however, in my simplistic mind, it seems that you are missing the forrest for the trees with your approach to paddling training.

You seem to have an idea of what your body can take in terms of training a few BPM over or under their anerobic threshold. The idea here is that you want to train as much as possible without overtraining. Well the obvious point to make is that you are putting out a much higher stress on your body when you train at your AT when biking compared with paddling--as evidenced by the fact that your heart rate is a full 10 beats per minute slower when paddling.

In a more general comment, marathon running is generally limited by glycogen, bike performance is often limited by cardiovascular ability, but the two sports are similar enough that the same training rules work for both. However, paddling is different because you are using a weaker set of muscles for propulsion, and the limiting factor in any "marathon" (typically closer to ~2 hours) length paddling race is muscle performance.

So when I look at your numbers, I think to myself that your arms simply don't have the necessary strength or endurance to put a significant load on your cardiovascular or other systems. So in my simplistic way of looking at things, this would naturally mean that you can fudge a bit on your typical heart rate training goals and instead focus on building arm (when I say "arm", I mean all of your muscles used for propulsion of the boat) strength and endurance. As your arms get stronger, your AT will rise to a level where your usual methods of training will become more meaningful.

However, maybe I am missing something?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5023 by MhojoNZ
The key elements of endurance performance comprise:

1. VO2 max
2. Exercise Economy
3. The lactate/anaerobic threshold

Our discussion has focussed on 3. but I don't think any of us think that is the whole story. When I started paddling I just couldn't seem to get my heart rate up. As my technique improved (learning to use more muscles I guess, with leg drive etc) my heart rate went up as high as it did with other forms of exercise, although I didn't seem to be as fast as other paddlers! Now I am managing to get higher speeds for lower heart rate. A lot of this adaptation is as yhomas points out, due to mechanical efficiency - improved strength, muscular endurance, coordination etc.

A good training programme will address all 3 areas while focussing on where the athelete needs to do the most work. It must also maintain interest and motivation and allow for sufficient recovery.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5024 by Rightarmbad

You seem to have an idea of what your body can take in terms of training a few BPM over or under their anerobic threshold. The idea here is that you want to train as much as possible without overtraining. Well the obvious point to make is that you are putting out a much higher stress on your body when you train at your AT when biking compared with paddling--as evidenced by the fact that your heart rate is a full 10 beats per minute slower when paddling.


Yes, total body stress is higher, but, it is high lactate levels that take it's toll, and a high lactate level in any regime is stressful.
Especially as the 'muscle lactate levels' are higher for the same bloodstream reading when a smaller muscle mass is involved.

The body shunts excess lactate out of working muscles to non working muscles so that they can metabolise it in their non working state, therefore allowing the working muscles to continue harder for longer. So the whole musculature takes a hit as well as the working muscles.
And there in lies the danger, even though the overall HR is lower, there is a significant amount of stress placed on the smaller working muscles.
Very high local lactate leads to a very acidic environment and produces a lot of muscle damage, not to mention the hit that the immune system takes from this.

Remember, heartrate is principally regulated by the amount of oxygen consumed.
When you go over AT for a few minutes, the lactate diffuses out of the working muscles and then off to the rest of the non working muscles, as these now begin to work at metabolising the lactate, their oxygen consumption begins to rise and this is what takes your HR over your threashold after a couple of minutes of working beyond AT.

That's why the little plateau occurs at the start of the race, it sits at AT until the non working muscles start to do some helping out with the lactate.
At that point the oxygen requirements rise and so therefore the HR.

In a more general comment, marathon running is generally limited by glycogen, bike performance is often limited by cardiovascular ability, but the two sports are similar enough that the same training rules work for both. However, paddling is different because you are using a weaker set of muscles for propulsion, and the limiting factor in any "marathon" (typically closer to ~2 hours) length paddling race is muscle performance.


At a very simplistic level, most of the adaptations that happen in training are at a muscle level. Apart from general circulatory adaptations, like capillarisation, increases in blood volume and the percentage of red blood cells of total volume, a bit of liver size increase, all the rest happens at a mitochondria level within the muscles themselves.
Running and cycling will produce a much greater effect in heart size and other general circulation factors as it uses a larger musculature.

So when I look at your numbers, I think to myself that your arms simply don't have the necessary strength or endurance to put a significant load on your cardiovascular or other systems.

Yep, totally agree, and I believe that I may have said that very same thing earlier on. :P

So in my simplistic way of looking at things, this would naturally mean that you can fudge a bit on your typical heart rate training goals

No, just use the goals worked out by a sport specific test.

instead focus on building arm (when I say "arm", I mean all of your muscles used for propulsion of the boat) strength and endurance.


Yep, very much so.

As your arms get stronger, your AT will rise to a level where your usual methods of training will become more meaningful.


My usual methods are just as meaningful. It's just that the HR's need to be very sport specific.
Hence the need for careful evaluation and not some weird arse formula that occupies many a training manual.

I agree that maybe my own AT HR for paddling will probably show a slow rise over the next year or so.
I believe that I also stated that earlier on in the thread. B)

I am certainly showing an increase in shoulder size etc.
But I do that when I start to swim a lot too, but my HR's never changed in the water.
But there is a difference there too in that the lungs really develop due to the restriction placed on breathing in a swim.

So who knows, new territory for me, that's what makes it interesting!

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5025 by Rightarmbad

This has 70g carbohydrate (300kcal) per litre which I understand is about as much as you can absorb per hour.


That's another topic.
A good general recommendation, but again, wildly out for some people.

I am quite comfortable with double that dose, my brother cannot take even the recommended 70 without throwing up.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5026 by Rightarmbad

The key elements of endurance performance comprise:

1. VO2 max
2. Exercise Economy
3. The lactate/anaerobic threshold

Our discussion has focussed on 3. but I don't think any of us think that is the whole story. When I started paddling I just couldn't seem to get my heart rate up. As my technique improved (learning to use more muscles I guess, with leg drive etc) my heart rate went up as high as it did with other forms of exercise, although I didn't seem to be as fast as other paddlers! Now I am managing to get higher speeds for lower heart rate. A lot of this adaptation is as yhomas points out, due to mechanical efficiency - improved strength, muscular endurance, coordination etc.

A good training programme will address all 3 areas while focussing on where the athelete needs to do the most work. It must also maintain interest and motivation and allow for sufficient recovery.


VO2 max, apart from very short stuff, the singly most overused measurement ever to exist. (My opinion)
There is very little correlation in VO2 max to endurance racing performance apart from showing that most endurance athletes are somewhere between reasonable and incredible on this test.
Maybe relevant to 1000m paddlers, I don't know. :unsure:

Here's a question.
What is exercise economy?
This is another of those buzzphrases that I don't like much.

I'd like to here from others, I have my own answer and will do up another long post when I have somebody else's post to bounce off of.

Now I am managing to get higher speeds for lower heart rate.


Now this one I am certainly playing around with myself.
I can paddle amazingly fast with a really low HR.
BUT, I think that there is a false economy here.
I find that when I do this that I am simply drawing on short term sprint power, alactic-anaerobic, in a controlled bleed type of way.
Works good for 20 minutes, but then that reserve is gone and I slow down.
I am much better to paddle with a technique that allows my HR to rise to the true output and when I do this, my speed stays with me, but at a higher HR.
More work to be done with this for me!

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #5027 by Rightarmbad

Since the last past I have been doing some more lactate testing at various heart rates. I'd be interested in your comments but realise this takes time, for which I would be happy to pay.
7/8 HR 132 Lac 1.9 (see previous post)
8/8 HR 144 Lac 2.7 connect.garmin.com/activity/43559087
17/8 HR 160ish Lac 4.7 ( not sure about the accuracy of this - went out in my steamer and proved a warm morning and overhealted very quickly - just couldn't seem to get my heart rate down)connect.garmin.com/activity/44898507
18/8 HR 150 Lac 3.5 connect.garmin.com/activity/45031951


Just reposting this to keep it on the same page to make it easier to respond to.
I shall get to it.

Alright, I've had a quick look.
Question. Are you taking the lactate reading directly at the end of these, or at some point in the graph?
Quite important to know this.
Minutes make a big difference to results. Less so when you are above AT than under.
So, is this a, stop the monitor, hit the shore, stab my finger scenario?

I shall comment on your graphs soon, I'm hanging out on your testing procedure, but more importantly, I shall make some comment on how you go about utilising your HR monitor and your lactate meter to best effect.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by Rightarmbad.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5028 by MhojoNZ
As you say - taken at the end of the session - probably within 60s of completion.
I am using a lactate scout. Finger-tip blood sample.
Not sure if cold hands make a difference because sometimes they are!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5030 by Rightarmbad

Do yourself a favour and buy an up to dated coaching book - Sport Physiology for Coaches (Brian J) Chapter 9.


O.K. So I did the google books thing on this.
This is what I found:
'Written primarily for high school coaches'

A very basic book indeed.
Nice troll, pity it took me a couple of weeks to fall for it.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5032 by MhojoNZ
Well we know that most of the adaptations in VO2max occur early on in training. It is also possible to see 5-10% increases in VO2max with training. (Jones AM, Carter H The Effect of Endurance Training of Parameter so Aerobic Fitness Sports Med 2000 Jun;29 (6) 373-386). And while I agree, it doesn't correlate well to performance in endurance events I think I would rather have more rather than less ;-). Also it does seem a "prerequisite" for good endurance performance so if VO2 max is low for some reason (?genetics) maybe you should take up bowls, stamp-collecting etc.

Exercise economy is defined as the oxygen uptake required at a given absolute exercise intensity (but you knew that).
Actually I think it is a useful concept, since we are all looking to be as efficient as possible in converting energy into movement.

I can paddle amazingly fast with a really low HR.
BUT, I think that there is a false economy here.
I find that when I do this that I am simply drawing on short term sprint power, alactic-anaerobic, in a controlled bleed type of way.

Surely unliky to be CPK based energy - that is all gone in a few seconds. Could it be more likely that your technique starts to break down, with muscles fatiguing at different rates i.e. you lose exercise economy!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #5033 by yhomas
Rightarmbad wrote:

Yes, total body stress is higher, but, it is high lactate levels that take it's toll, and a high lactate level in any regime is stressful.
Especially as the 'muscle lactate levels' are higher for the same bloodstream reading when a smaller muscle mass is involved.

The body shunts excess lactate out of working muscles to non working muscles so that they can metabolise it in their non working state, therefore allowing the working muscles to continue harder for longer. So the whole musculature takes a hit as well as the working muscles.
And there in lies the danger, even though the overall HR is lower, there is a significant amount of stress placed on the smaller working muscles.

Very high local lactate leads to a very acidic environment and produces a lot of muscle damage, not to mention the hit that the immune system takes from this.


This is not even close to being true. Lactic acid is not a harmful substance, rather it is fuel for muscles. Lactic acid is metabolized with ease by fully functional muscles. The reason why lactic acid builds up in association with fatigue is because as muscles become "fatigued", they are not able to sufficiently utilize the available fuel. The body manufactures the lactic acid fuel in the proper amount needed for the work to be done, but since the muscles aren't able to burn their allotted fuel, excess lactic acid begins to accumulate. Such an accumulation is not harmful whatsoever, and plays no role in muscle damage or soreness--as evidenced by the fact that the lactic acid is quickly absorbed after the training/racing is complete, but muscle soreness isn't evident until much later. Some recent research is suggesting that the accumulation of high lactate levels may help trigger cellular muscle adaptations.

Relevant news stories and articles on the subject: www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060420235214.htm
www.physorg.com/news64680736.html
www.aleixo.com/biblioteca/MUSCULA/Topico...adiga%20muscular.pdf
journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2008...mplex_and_an.13.aspx
www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/10/2602

www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/lactic-acid.html

Remember, heartrate is principally regulated by the amount of oxygen consumed.
When you go over AT for a few minutes, the lactate diffuses out of the working muscles and then off to the rest of the non working muscles, as these now begin to work at metabolising the lactate, their oxygen consumption begins to rise and this is what takes your HR over your threashold after a couple of minutes of working beyond AT.

That's why the little plateau occurs at the start of the race, it sits at AT until the non working muscles start to do some helping out with the lactate.
At that point the oxygen requirements rise and so therefore the HR.


I am sure that your observations regarding heart rate vs. AT vs. lactate levels are correct, however your interpretation as to the physiological meaning, being based on the fictional idea of lactic acid being a waste product rather than a fuel, probably needs to be revised.

My usual methods are just as meaningful. It's just that the HR's need to be very sport specific.
Hence the need for careful evaluation and not some weird arse formula


I agree 100% that the formulas are worthless, but in addition, I am suggesting two possibilities:
#1. Your training rules about X amount of training at X% over or under AT may need to be somewhat "sport specific" as well since the rules were written for sports that are cardio-vascular/glycogen limited rather than muscle endurance limited
#2. The rules that you have identified would work perfectly for an elite paddler, however, for someone who is generally highly fit, but new to paddling, the rules may need to be adjusted to account for the relatively large gap between the "arm" muscle strength/endurance vs. overall fitness.

One related observation is that the best marathon runners in the world (Ethiopians/Kenyans) generally don't do any interval training or weight lifting, whereas as far as I know, the best marathon paddlers in the world generally do a lot of interval training and weight lifting. My rationalization of this is that relatively speaking, elite marathon runners are able to get their muscle endurance up to par relatively easy, so their training is more focused other factors (cardiovascular, running economy, etc.); on the other hand, kayakers are constantly battling to achieve sufficient muscle strength and endurance.

So as someone who is highly ignorant of the proper training technique regarding the particulars of AT, I would advise a new paddler to treat the majority of his paddling training sessions as if they were "weight lifting" sessions in the sense that the goal is to simply build muscle strength and endurance. Generally, the way to do this is to do either do intervals (tabata-style intervals definitely included), or to paddle long/hard enough that the "arms" become highly fatigued (this can also be assisted by adding extra weight/resistance to the boat)--and either way, the evidence of a good workout is a high degree of muscle fatigue during the workout and/or a high degree of soreness later.

Obviously, this simplistic training strategy is insufficient for someone to become an elite level paddler, but I think it will likely lead to more rapid progress for a new paddler than getting tweaky with heart rate training because the new paddler's heart rate is so far off what it reasonably should be once they get their arms stronger.
Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by yhomas.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5060 by Rightarmbad

Surely unliky to be CPK based energy - that is all gone in a few seconds. Could it be more likely that your technique starts to break down, with muscles fatiguing at different rates i.e. you lose exercise economy!


All gone in a tens of seconds if you use it at full intensity.
Lasts much longer if you don't....
A three minute rest will recover 50% from a full depletion.
Something to think about when catching good waves.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5062 by Rightarmbad
A quick disclaimer here.
I try to write as simply as possible. The terms I use such as lactate are strictly incorrect, but it is what most people understand. Most people have never heard of Pyruviate or electron transport chains or similar terms.
Most people don't need to either, if a simpler understanding will allow an easier comprehension.


This is not even close to being true. Lactic acid is not a harmful substance, rather it is fuel for muscles. Lactic acid is metabolized with ease by fully functional muscles. The reason why lactic acid builds up in association with fatigue is because as muscles become "fatigued", they are not able to sufficiently utilize the available fuel. The body manufactures the lactic acid fuel in the proper amount needed for the work to be done, but since the muscles aren't able to burn their allotted fuel, excess lactic acid begins to accumulate. Such an accumulation is not harmful whatsoever, and plays no role in muscle damage or soreness--as evidenced by the fact that the lactic acid is quickly absorbed after the training/racing is complete, but muscle soreness isn't evident until much later. Some recent research is suggesting that the accumulation of high lactate levels may help trigger cellular muscle adaptations.


Yes it is fuel for the muscles.
It's a two step thing where the second step is that lactate enters Krebs cycle to be turned into more ATP, carbon dioxide and water.
The trouble is that, at intensities above AT, the second step cannot keep up with the rates of the first step and the lactate accumulates sending the muscle in acidosis.

That is what slows you down, once the muscles go acidic, it gets harder and harder as it takes a stronger electrical signal to fire them, hence the heavy feeling in your muscles.

I agree that it plays no general role in muscle soreness, but it does weaken and burst newly formed capillaries less than about 6 weeks old. Hence the need to build a good aerobic base for the first six weeks before heading over AT.

It can play a role in soreness in one aspect and that is an acidic muscle can be more prone to small micro type tears.

Some recent research is suggesting that the accumulation of high lactate levels may help trigger cellular muscle adaptations.


Agree, and a little known benefit is that it can also change hormone influence on fat deposits.
I for one can attest to having extremely low fat levels when high lactate training is done.
Don't know the proper mechanism for this.

I am sure that your observations regarding heart rate vs. AT vs. lactate levels are correct, however your interpretation as to the physiological meaning, being based on the fictional idea of lactic acid being a waste product rather than a fuel, probably needs to be revised.


I've never claimed it to be a waste product (see above) just that an excess of it is what slows you down through the mechanism of acidosis.
Being a waste product is a popular press output that has tainted everybodies thinking.

One related observation is that the best marathon runners in the world (Ethiopians/Kenyans) generally don't do any interval training or weight lifting,


Marathon is run under AT and the limiting factor is glycogen stores and the ability to refuel during the race.
Most good runners can easily achieve their marathon pace without extra muscle through lifting.
Gaining muscle and therefore weight will probably make you slower.

So as someone who is highly ignorant of the proper training technique regarding the particulars of AT, I would advise a new paddler to treat the majority of his paddling training sessions as if they were "weight lifting" sessions in the sense that the goal is to simply build muscle strength and endurance.


Yes agree to a point, but keep the intense output short, ie only 20 seconds or so with a big rest in between, due to the aforementioned effects on capillary development early on.
You can easily train strength and low speed endurance at the same time in your training, as there is very little Lactate produced.
When you start training at sustained levels above AT to train your AT, then that's all you should be doing along with low level recovery sessions just below fat burn threashold.

So my own biased recommendations for a new paddler would be to go out and paddle for an hour, hour and a half at a comfortable pace.
Do this for at least six weeks to give the capillaries you are building time to mature and then start to introduce some harder stuff.
I would also recommend some, long rest 'ten seconds or less' accelerations to build muscle early on in the piece.
Both of these things can be done whilst concentrating on technique.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #5063 by Rightarmbad
Sorry, haven't had time to follow any of your links, I'll get to it and comment if I see anything that piques my interest.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by Rightarmbad. Reason: typo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #5064 by Rightarmbad

Since the last past I have been doing some more lactate testing at various heart rates. I'd be interested in your comments but realise this takes time, for which I would be happy to pay.
7/8 HR 132 Lac 1.9 (see previous post)
8/8 HR 144 Lac 2.7 connect.garmin.com/activity/43559087
17/8 HR 160ish Lac 4.7 ( not sure about the accuracy of this - went out in my steamer and proved a warm morning and overhealted very quickly - just couldn't seem to get my heart rate down)connect.garmin.com/activity/44898507
18/8 HR 150 Lac 3.5 connect.garmin.com/activity/45031951



8/8 A really good session for fat burn threashold training. If that was your aim, well executed.
I would suggest that you quite easily push this out at least another half hour or more at this level.
2 hour plus should be no problem.
More time on task.
Just watch how high you let it creep, you went a little high on occasion. Probably don't want to see much over 142.

The slightly high lactate reading at the end, well, high for this type of training, is a reflection of the short trip up over into sugar at 150bpm or so a couple of minutes from the end.
Had you taken a reading at the 35 min mark, I would have expected a reading in the ones,probably 1.6 or 7, not much more than a resting level of .8 to .9.

You can see that you started off without a rush and by doing so kept your body in fat burn.
Look how quickly your HR responds at the start. A good sign that you started in fat and stayed in fat.

17/8 Nice easy start and went into sugar quite early on, your speed was low, so I guess that you were headed into the current.
You then paddled in a sort of no mans land, too low for a 45min intensive endurance paddle, IE a couple of beats below AT, and probably just a little too fast for a longer maybe hour and a half, extensive endurance paddle, ie a few beats above fat burn.
The second half being a effort much better suited to the time out, a slightly higher pace, just a couple under AT with a push at the end sending you over AT for a bit.

The high lactate reading was simply showing the effect of going over near the end.
Again, had you taken a reading at somewhere near the 40min mark, I would have expected 3.5 or so.
It also suggests that my predicted AT of 165/166 should be taken on lowest side and go with 165 at this stage.
It may be that your AT is up around 4, but I still suspect it to be around 3.9 or close.

I hope that after you took that reading you then spent another ten min or so clearing that lactate.

In the end you turned it into an intensive endurance day with a quick jump up over AT for the hell of it.
An improvement would have been to get up around 160 after the first ten minutes and hold it there to make the entire workout more effective.
A good workout for after the season has started, as racing becomes your AT training.
Hard to comment on your impression of high HR without knowing what you did in the days preceding.

18/8 another low intensity endurance session that should possibly have been pushed out for a longer session.
Slightly high for a fat burn threashold and really too low for the distance now you are in sugar.
Just the way the HR stayed low at the start, I'd be suspecting maybe a slight cold is having a go at you.
May explain the feeling of high rate in the previous run.
Or you have had a couple of nights short sleeped.

Just as an aside, if you take your resting pulse in the morning every day, you can usually see the onset of a bad cold or flu by a drop in your resting rate three or four days out from when you notice symptoms.
You also feel to have a great training session with feelings that what may have been a hard session felt easier than it should.
If you get those two warning signs together, take a day off and make your next couple of paddles under fat burn threashold ( for you about 133 )and it shouldn't get a hold of you.

A HR curve taken during those days will also show a false shift to the right with the lactate staying lower generally, and much flatter than normal section from around 2.0 up to 3.3 or so, where you normally see a continuous rise until the onset of AT where it swings logarithmically up, if you see a flatness like that during testing, stop before going close to AT or over and go home and rest.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by Rightarmbad.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #5067 by yhomas
Rightarmbad wrote:

The trouble is that, at intensities above AT, the second step cannot keep up with the rates of the first step and the lactate accumulates sending the muscle in acidosis.

That is what slows you down, once the muscles go acidic, it gets harder and harder as it takes a stronger electrical signal to fire them, hence the heavy feeling in your muscles.


This has been the theory in years past, but more recent studies have demonstrated that acidity likely plays little role in fatigue. www.aleixo.com/biblioteca/MUSCULA/Topico...adiga%20muscular.pdf

Think about it logically. If blood acidity was actually the cause of fatigue, we could simply drink a sports drink with a high (basic) PH and/or take antacids to solve the problem. Olympic athletes would get caught injectinc antacids into their arms/legs before the race. Obviously, this is not the case.

It is fairly reasonable at this point to say that the theory of lactic acid causing muscle fatigue/damage is outdated--highly unlikely to be true. The accumulation of lactic acid is a symptom of fatigue--not the cause.

I agree that it plays no general role in muscle soreness, but it does weaken and burst newly formed capillaries less than about 6 weeks old. Hence the need to build a good aerobic base for the first six weeks before heading over AT.

It can play a role in soreness in one aspect and that is an acidic muscle can be more prone to small micro type tears.


Once again, I would question whether lactic acid is a cause (of the burst capillaries and micro tears) or merely an associated symptom. In practice, I suppose we can measure lactic acid, so on a very practical level, perhaps we might as well say that high lactic acid "causes" x problems. Maybe I am just being nitpicky, but I wish for the lactic acid myths to be extinguished now that we know better.
Last edit: 12 years 1 month ago by yhomas.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5068 by MhojoNZ
Enjoy your discussion. I'm off to Fiji for 12 days. All I have to paddle is a plastic frenzy :-)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5070 by Rightarmbad
I do, or I wouldn't keep posting......

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5071 by Rightarmbad

This has been the theory in years past, but more recent studies have demonstrated that acidity likely plays little role in fatigue. www.aleixo.com/biblioteca/MUSCULA/Topico...adiga%20muscular.pdf

Think about it logically. If blood acidity was actually the cause of fatigue, we could simply drink a sports drink with a high (basic) PH and/or take antacids to solve the problem. Olympic athletes would get caught injectinc antacids into their arms/legs before the race. Obviously, this is not the case.

It is fairly reasonable at this point to say that the theory of lactic acid causing muscle fatigue/damage is outdated--highly unlikely to be true. The accumulation of lactic acid is a symptom of fatigue--not the cause.


This has been postulated for a while now.
Many people have experimented with taking high doses of antacid orally and have found an effect, but it was so high as to be impracticable for most as it usually induced vomiting.
Blood acidity is not the problem, that's only what we have means of measuring, it's the muscle acidity itself that is the problem. But we cannot directly measure that.

Once again, I would question whether lactic acid is a cause (of the burst capillaries and micro tears) or merely an associated symptom. In practice, I suppose we can measure lactic acid, so on a very practical level, perhaps we might as well say that high lactic acid "causes" x problems. Maybe I am just being nitpicky, but I wish for the lactic acid myths to be extinguished now that we know better.


The high acid environment weakens the capillaries and therefore contributes to the destruction of them under high stress loads.

Still haven't followed your links, I merely answer off the top of my head.
But what I have read in the past about theories of acidosis not being the mechanism of muscle inhibition, has lead to no provable hypothesis or ability to predict or prescribe training outcomes.
So for me at this stage, it is merely theories playing around the edges of what is already known and proven to work.
Having said that, I still haven't followed your links or done any research into this for three years now.
I'll be back after some internetting.......

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 month ago #5072 by AR_convert
MhojoNZ wrote:

Enjoy your discussion. I'm off to Fiji for 12 days. All I have to paddle is a plastic frenzy :-)


Cool, I have time to refill the popcorn bucket :P

Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

  • No posts to display.