Epic mid wing = Jantex .....size?

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9 years 6 months ago #15909 by coldwater
I recently paddled a Jantex Gamma. Felt like I was sticking a pole in solid concrete so firm was the catch-awesome! Not sure what size the blade was tho... :blink:

Having used and been comfortable on an Epic small mid and mid wing can anyone in the know advise me on what the equivalent size Jantex paddle would be...?

Or any other comments on the Jantex...?
Thanks...

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9 years 6 months ago #15911 by swimskier
Also went from Epic Mid-Wing to Gamma Medium + Ultralight with soft shaft and I'm very pleased with the paddle. There was nothing wrong with Epic, but feel that I can apply more power with Jantex. For me too the catch feels more solid and exit as smooth as the Epic. In general, I feel that I'm more efficient with Jantex and don't find it more tiring to paddle longer distances either.

The Gamma Medium has the same blade surface (750 cm2) as Mid-wing, Medium + (780 cm2) is in between Mid and Mid-Large (820 cm2).

For Jantex sizing surf to www.jantex.sk/products/flat-water/gamma

Nelo 560 SCS, Nelo Cinco E XXL, Epic V8 Ultra,

Previous skis: Epic V14 Elite, Fenn Elite Glide Carbon, Epic V10 Ultra G2, EPIC V10L Elite G1,
Previous K1s: Nelo Cinco SCS XXXL, Vajda Infusion 2 XL Elite, Epic Legacy XXL Marathon,Elio Sprint-P Marathon

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9 years 6 months ago #15912 by coldwater
Thanks for your reply.

What exactly does the 'ultralight' here refer to?
Is it the actual blade weight...?
Or the shaft?

You mention 'soft shaft'...
Keeping things above board here ;)
are there only 2 options like the Epics?
Stiff & flexible...?

Your Jantex is used for Surfski paddling primarily?
Does it have the yellow label?

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9 years 6 months ago - 9 years 6 months ago #15914 by swimskier
You can find all these details with some recommendations for various paddler profiles and type of paddling on the Jantex web-site (link above).

The "ultralight" refers to blade construction (white label) and they do soft (white label) and stiff (yellow label) shafts. The stiff blade has a yellow label.

I happily use this paddle for surfski paddling mainly on lakes and rivers.

Nelo 560 SCS, Nelo Cinco E XXL, Epic V8 Ultra,

Previous skis: Epic V14 Elite, Fenn Elite Glide Carbon, Epic V10 Ultra G2, EPIC V10L Elite G1,
Previous K1s: Nelo Cinco SCS XXXL, Vajda Infusion 2 XL Elite, Epic Legacy XXL Marathon,Elio Sprint-P Marathon
Last edit: 9 years 6 months ago by swimskier.

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9 years 6 months ago #15919 by Kennneee
Can anyone compare the Jantex to an Onno? I have an Epic Mid Wing and Small Mid Wing. Have heard good things about the Onno and Jantex and would love some input.

Thanks.
Ken

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9 years 6 months ago #15920 by kayakchampeen
If you already have epic wings x 2 then you already have an Onno, as far as blade design is concerned. Unless you just want a custom paddle or have $400 to burn I would say you already have that blade design covered The Onno's are renowned for being very well made, but would offer no appreciable difference from the epics paddling-wise. The Gamma is a completely different animal. Works best at higher cadence, takes a while to intuit as it doesn't "tell you what to do" like other wings. Size comparisons v. epic are irrelevant as it has completely different timing in when the power is available. G'power galaxy 2 is actually a better quality version of the Gamma, and there are other copies out there much cheaper. (zastera, orka, legend, max paddle...Gamma style blade works well for those who ALREADY HAVE THEIR STROKE TECHNIQUE SORTED. If not, one can easily fall into bad habits with this design.

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9 years 6 months ago #15921 by wesley
The lever lock is similiar on the Onnos and the Jantex which was the primary reason many paddlers, myself included switch to the Onnos a few years ago. The Onnos also at the time was the lighest paddle on the market and well made. I had 4 or 5 a few years back. Then Jantex switched from the hose clamp to the current lever lock system a few years ago. The "feel" for various reasons is much different on the jantex. You should try a Jantex so you will know and see if it the right paddle for you or not.

Wesley Echols
SurfskiRacing.com
#1 in Surfski Reviews.

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9 years 6 months ago #15922 by Kayaker Greg
This is timely, I'm looking for a replacement for my Epic small mid that didn't survive this mornings sprint workout. I like the feel of the Epic paddles but I'm afraid to do a sprint workout with another. What are my options, something that feels similar but is stronger?

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9 years 6 months ago #15923 by Kennneee
Thanks for the replies. I used the same epic mid-wing, blue shaft 215-225 for 10 years. This year I finally realized that paddle was on the long side, the shaft stiffer than my joints liked and perhaps the blade was bigger than I needed. I tried a newer small mid wing with the burgundy shaft and went with a 210-220. Felt great. I bought my wife the same paddle with with a 205-215 length and that is becoming my new favorite. It has me wondering if there is something even better out there or maybe I have found the holy grail. At some point the equipment is not the answer but it is easier than training!

Ken

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9 years 6 months ago #15925 by PaddleFaster
I can vouch for the quality of Patrick's build with his Onno Paddles.

I have put substantial mileage on his Sprint wing, Mid wing and new Mid Plus wing paddles.

All of his wings are very forgiving. You can mess up a stroke and not suffer for it.

The great thing about getting a blade from Patrick, is that he can customize the blade layup to your needs. Before he builds your paddle he will communicate with you and suggest length, blade size and if you desire a slightly beefier layup because you are the type that is rough on equipment, he will take care of it.

I have pushed off of muscle beds with his paddles. I've dug them into the muddy sands of inner bad mud banks' and they barely get a mark on them from the experience.

I personally prefer the finer round shaft of his paddles to the oval of Epic Mid I had. That's a personal preference though.

Like most people that deal with him, over the years I have come to appreciate both him and his paddles a great deal. I have personally had him build about 1/2 a dozen blades for me along the way.

Are his paddles faster than others? I really can't say.

What I can say is that they are comfortable, super durable, beautifully crafted, and in my opinion a good overall value.

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9 years 6 months ago - 9 years 6 months ago #15932 by cjborg

kayakchampeen wrote: ...The Onno's are renowned for being very well made, but would offer no appreciable difference from the epics paddling-wise. The Gamma is a completely different animal. Works best at higher cadence, takes a while to intuit as it doesn't "tell you what to do" like other wings.


Your comparison between the Onno and Epic vis-a-vis paddling is exactly the opposite of my experience. That may be because I have the Onno small endurance wing and a model that is a larger version of the same blade shape, and these are a bit different from the original Onno, but these paddles behave entirely differently from the Epic small mid and medium mid wings, at least in my hands.

There are so many differences, it is difficult to know where to begin. The Onno have round shafts, whereas the Epics I've used have oval shafts … this changes the feel a lot, and for me, the oval causes wrist strain.

The Epic blades load up immediately on entry, probably due to the pointedness of the tip. In contrast, the Onno blades load up much later in the power phase than the Epic, and much more in sync with my own power optimum during the stroke. This is probably due to a more rounded tip and wider belly (on the Onno blade... not on me). Some may prefer the very quick, solid load up of the Epic. It took me a while to get used to when I changed from the Epic to Onno, but now I much prefer the Onno's load profile and can paddle longer with less shoulder fatigue as the Onno power phase is in sync with my lats and hip power phase.

While the Epic has a very solid feel to the catch, it requires a rather precise entry to be efficient. The Onno is much more versatile than the Epic with respect to the optimal angle of entry. The Onno blades enter the water from a shallow stroke angle just as well as from a more upright stroke angle, and I find this to be a huge advantage in rough or very windy conditions. It is difficult to make the Onno cavitate (not sure that is a word, but I'm referring to the loud, "chunk" sound that a paddle makes when the catch gets water and air together)...the Onno blades grab water cleanly no matter how you jam them into the water.

Though I've not had the pleasure of trying a Jantex, the Gamma described above is the way I would describe the Onno blades. . . they don't dictate how you paddle in any way. I can grip the Onno very lightly because I don't need to control the way the blade enters, pulls, or exits. . . it just finds it's own way solidly and reliably.

Both exit the water cleanly, but again, the Onno is more versatile, exiting the water very cleanly and quickly irrespective of the stroke angle, whereas the Epic can feel as if it is dragging with too low or too high a stroke angle or too long a stroke. If you have Barton-like technique, that's probably not an issue . . . but I definitely don't.

Both are very well made and light. I give the nod here to the Onno based on fit and finish . . . never seen a split paddle that slides together so perfectly . . . though I don't think there is anything to complain about with the Epic. I have not tried the new lever lock on the Epic, but the Onno is superb - I can change paddle length very easily while paddling in almost any conditions.

Anyway... just my experience, and with a particular Onno blade . . . Patrick's newest design . . . but I find the Epic and Onno to be very different. I also used Knysna swing paddles for years and found them to be intermediate in their characteristics, though decidedly closer to the Epic than the Onno.

For what it's worth, all my PB speeds for 30 min, 60 min, and 90 min have been set since I've switched to Onno . . . doubt that it is due to conditioning as at 54 yrs, I'm probably on the downward slope of the fitness / strength curve.

Sorry for the long post - hope it helped someone.
Last edit: 9 years 6 months ago by cjborg.
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9 years 6 months ago #15956 by kayakchampeen
OK, I am now convinced of the following,

I overstated the case in sayin' there were no differences between Epic and Onno paddles. I suppose that I would like the ability to adjust the lever-lock on the fly versus my Jantex blades which are on a old hose-clamp Brasca 28mm round shaft. I've already stated my distaste for epic ovalled shafts so I'm sure I would prefer the Onno in a blind comparison. It may be that I haven't seen Patrick's latest blade design and some of what is described as Onno traits result from comparing a small endurance wing with a larger planform. The couple of Onno's I've seen in person were very similar to an epic mid, albeit in a much more painstakingly-engineered iteration. Patrick is, like Jude, a true artisan and the Onno is no doubt a better mousetrap.
But if you want an indestructible paddle the Patasi Turbo is the way to go, He has both the FES and recently the Gamma blade styles. these paddles are strong like an old Van Dusen Zero. Mucho carbon v. resin content. (autoclaved prepreg?>)
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9 years 6 months ago #15958 by cjborg
Patrick is now making two sizes of the new Onno design; he started with the smaller endurance wing, and then some asked him for a larger version of the same blade. I have both, and they seem to have identical characteristics...at least they feel identical to me, the only difference being one is larger and therefore offers more resistance.

The larger blade slows my cadence by 2-3 strokes per minute compared to the smaller. On flatwater, I have greater initial acceleration from a static start or slow speed with the smaller blade, but can attain a brief, max speed of about .8 kph greater with the larger blade. Not surprisingly, the larger blade tires me faster, and consequently, I can maintain a high speed or ramp up to redline repeatedly, for a longer period with the smaller blade. I'm not sure exactly where the break-point is for me, but I would guess that for paddles of longer than 50-60 minutes, I'd be faster with the smaller blade.

There's a lot more to factor into it in waves, but those general characteristics hold. I choose which to use depending on the training goal or the conditions and length of the paddle.

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9 years 6 months ago #15961 by kayakchampeen
I perused the ONNO web site and it's pretty evident that the 2 "new blade designs" the mid and small endurance are the same large sprint wing cut down in length and width along the trailing edge. They are not a different design. They are practically identical to the epic large, mid, small mid. etc. Which are also cut down from the large as is just about every small and midsize wing of every description. Subtle variations in exactly how the trailing edge is cut down can be noticed subjectively but it's still just a smaller version of the same paddle. Everything you described as different about the small ONNO endurance from an Epic, except the shaft, is a consequence of the fact that the blade is just plain smaller and has less drag. I can applaud that you are an ONNO partisan and like yours better than an Epic for various reasons, but I stand by my original comment that Onno and epic blade designs are virtually identical. If you compare them size for size you will see what I mean. The OP here was asking about ONNO vis a vis his Epic. You elaborated a list of reasons you think the ONNO is a superior paddle, which i concur with. But IT SIMPLY IS NOT A DIFFERENT BLADE DESIGN FROM THE EPIC. A cursory glance will tell you this. That is why I told him that It would not seem all that different from his own epic, and that the Jantex, being actually different, would be a radical departure in feel. You Onno people are fanatics, I'll give you that. Patrick makes a great paddle that I would be proud to own, but let's not pretend he invented some novel blade design, that is simply not true.

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9 years 6 months ago - 9 years 6 months ago #15962 by cjborg
I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to attack and accuse me, kayakchampeen. I'm not trying to argue with you, but merely provide information based on my own experience.

I have two Epics and two Onnos in front of me, and I've had all of them in the water for hours. I don't reject your experience or your evaluation; mine is just different based on my use of the paddles.

I actually like the Epic paddles, other than the oval shafts, and I like the Knysna Swing paddles. If I were paddling primarily K1, I might prefer them over the Onno.

But it's REALLY interesting that based on your perusal of a website, you accuse me of partisanship and fanaticism. I don't feel any need to deride, debase, or call you names, but I suppose if I had the superior powers you have to judge things by pictures on website, I might feel as outraged as you apparently are by a different perspective.

You are truly an amazing fellow, and I'll leave the thread to you now because I don't have the capability, nor do I wish to discuss things on your level.
Last edit: 9 years 6 months ago by cjborg.

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9 years 6 months ago #15963 by kayakchampeen
Wow you are thin skinned dude! Please show me where I attacked you or "debased" you (is it even possible to debase someone in the course of a forum entry?). Calling you a partisan or fanatic is hardly a slight, more of a compliment. I already acknowledged that your reasons for loving the ONNO are perfectly valid reasons. I only took exception to your assertion that the blade was somehow different from the Epic, which is just erroneous info to perpetuate, esp. as it pertains to the original question in this thread. The OP wanted accurate info re. the question he posed. Which led you to compare apples and oranges and arrive at your own conclusions. Comparisons between blade designs in particular are really only valid if the two blades are the same nominal size. There is more difference in feel between a large and small wing of the same brand then there is between various designs. For the record, small wings have a markedly different feel than larger sizes, more so than the actual size difference would seem to indicate.
It bothers me when my penchant for exactitude comes across as condescending. In reality I'm only striving to help create an accurate picture for those out there without out the wherewithal to go buy "four or five" expensive carbon wings at a time, so that they might make knowledgeable purchasing decisions with their hard earned cash. Apologies to you cjborg.I certainly didn't mean to call you out. The irony of course being that I agreed wholeheartedly with most of what you said. I know if I had a perfectly good Epic-Mid however and wanted to try something "different" it would be a paddle that is different in some fundamental aspect, not necessarily a marginally superior version of what i already had.
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9 years 6 months ago - 9 years 6 months ago #15965 by Kayaker Greg
My comments on trying a Jantex Gamma medium yesterday for a couple of hours after only ever using the Epic small mid and mid paddles. For me the Gamma medium did feel different to the Epic paddles, the catch felt more solid than the Epic small mid, however the stroke felt like I was using a smaller paddle than the Epic mid. In the conditions I was in paddling into a building breeze and a bit of bump I missed the support that the Epic mid gives me in these conditions, the Gamma medium seemed to have the similar support of the Epic small mid. This was a bit disconcerting for me as I've lost 10kg in the last 8 months and my Stellar SEL was a bit corky and felt too big for me paddling into the light breeze and bumps. I was wishing I had taken my Epic mid with me for the support it provides or used my smaller Swordfish. However when I was able to just concentrate on my stroke the speed I was travelling appeared to be faster than for the same effort with the Epic paddles. I naturally have a slow turn over stroke and I've been trying to up the rating, I think this paddle will assist with that.
On turning around as the breeze kicked in for an 11km run with the breeze the Jantex Gamma felt great for me with the paddle and the SEL combining for a fun and fast downwind where I beat all the other paddlers back with about a 5-10 minute margin except for another Stellar paddler who is way better paddler than me and he started behind me and finished about a minute ahead, the other paddlers I regard as better paddlers than myself as well with a lot more experience and I did not expect to beat them.
I think for me I'm going to need some time to get used to this paddle, I think I will continue with the Epic mid in bumpier conditions for awhile and use the Jantex Gamma for sprinting, flatter conditions and when I'm using my more stable Swordfish. With time I hope to make a full transition to the Gamma. The only real complaint for me was that it did not have the same support of the Epic mid. I'm looking forward to trying it over the next few weeks in flatter conditions and doing workouts that I do each week so I can compare the averages.
I didn't like the small round shaft and once I have my own Gamma will probably build up the hand grip area with tape and ovalise it like the Epic paddles.
Last edit: 9 years 6 months ago by Kayaker Greg.

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9 years 6 months ago #15969 by kayakchampeen
thanks Greg for an initial appraisal of the Gamma. I think you are spot-on in your observations. The gamma will never feel as reassuring as the epic (especially in the latter part of the stroke) because the Epic's purchase in the water is linear versus time. Imagine Cartesian coordinates with x being elapsed time of the stroke and y being force imparted in newtons on the lever arm of the paddle. In the case of an epic (which is like a detuned B4) and also most parallel edge blades, like a GUT for instance, the graph would be almost a plateau. Meaning that once the paddle was seated in the water in a laminar fashion, the power available is steady-state until the end of the stroke, without deviation. The trajectory through the water is also pre-ordained to a greater extent with an epic. This time/power response provides support throughout the stroke, all the way until the exit. The Gamma and to an extent the B6, exhibit a curve more like a traditional bell curve, meaning the available power starts small, builds exponentially, peaks at a given point in time at mid-stroke , and then dissipates again towards the end.

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9 years 5 months ago #15978 by onnopaddle
I feel there is a need to clarify a few things here.

Kayakchampeen, no offense intended, but without ever seeing my molds and process, speaking to me about them or let alone trying the paddles. I don't believe its fair for you to make such broad stroke statements concerning my paddles design and performance characteristics as if they were fact. Shoots man, I did not even make a Sprint wing 'till after a couple other designs.

I feel you should at the very least try to preface your statements with something that denotes these are your opinions. Thanks from all of us little guys.

I can understand how some confusion can arise from simply going by the names of the paddles and if I ever get a chance, I believe I will change some things on my website.

I describe my Mid profile as "industry standard " and it is similar to other paddles but please know there ARE indeed subtle differences that make them better. ( I M O : )

The " Smaller Mid " moniker does lend itself to being misunderstood as only a scaled down version of the Mid and I am guilty of not ever getting a photo up of it. Maybe I'll call it a new name and the new larger version will just be a " new name + "

On to say, please know my Smaller Mid is a DIFFERENT profile than my Mid and is has been a real eye opener for everyone who has used it out in the ocean. This is my favorite shape and while its not a reinvention of the wheel, it IS a refined shape that has allowed folks to shed their ball and chain.

These subtleties do not show up on a website image, rather they manifest in your hands out on the water as part of a total package. Which is where I always invite people to do their actual, real world comparisons.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your information guys.

aloha,
patrick
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9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #15984 by fredrik
Just to fill in on Kayakchampeens reference.

After having used Orka Outer, BracsaIV extra light , Jantex Gamma M ultra light I have found a great paddle which has improved my boat speed (0.2-0.3 kph during eg 4 min x 12 sessions).

The paddle is a 49x16 cm Patasi Turbo. Kayakchampeen mentioned this paddle as super solid, which is very true. The paddle is a handmade one side vacuum moulded paddle in solid carbon (ie no foam). The finish is therefore not as glossy as the Jantex/bracsa paddles I own. Adam v. Koeverden and Anders Gustavsson use it in their K1s so I guess a glossy finish doesn´t generate speed. :_)

The paddles are all made with the same shape but cut to the dimensions. Peter Patasi is a great guy who will make it fit your needs. Sounds like Onno/Patricks brother (whom I have never talked to)

The paddle is very stable in the water, even with a poor catch in buzy water. For some reason it is also stable if you happen to start the "power phase" before the blade is fully submerged. This is particularly evident during intervall sessions, when you are full of lactic acid and your technique is starting to fall apart. With the Turbo, my speed and heart rate remains higher for a longer period of time.

I´m not sure what a comparable shape is, but it looks similar to the GUT or Jantex Beta (kayakchampeen, may know?).

Be aware that a solid carbon paddle is heavier than a Gamma/Bracsa and weights in at about 800g but it is worth it for me.

The Turbo paddle is a fantastic paddle for me, with my techique, but I urge you all to try one if you have an opportunity.

And for avoidance of doubt, I have no ties to Peter Patasi and his paddles, beyond having paid for one and using it.
Last edit: 9 years 5 months ago by fredrik.

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