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Analyse my stroke

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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #7849 by AR_convert
Analyse my stroke was created by AR_convert
I thought this thread might be handy for those with snippets of their stroke to post up and let us armchair coaches give each other pointers ;)

I'll get the ball rolling with a couple of videos of a small race I was in yesterday, I reckon race video's tell a lot, you are not focused on paddling well for the camera, you are just concentrating on positioning in the field.

About 34 seconds into this clip the camera pans back and I am in centre of the shot, blue shirt paddling camera side on the wash of a double ski in my all white Vault ski.



Again in this shot I am in the blue shirt with the big hair :whistle:



Let the slinging begin :laugh: :P ;)

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by AR_convert.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7851 by kiwial
Replied by kiwial on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Doesn't look too bad when compared to alot of paddlers out there and the camera angles don't give us much to work with, if you had some footage side on (just you) and paddling directly toward and away from the camera this would be easier but from what I could see;
Too short on the catch
(because of) not enough rotation
(and) arms not straight at the end of the push phase
possibly pulling too far back (hard to tell with the footage used)
get some dedicated footage and I'll be able to give better help

Al

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7853 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Forget about the stroke; how did that guy fall out in that almost mirror conditions?

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7854 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke

kiwial wrote: Too short on the catch
(because of) not enough rotation
(and) arms not straight at the end of the push phase
possibly pulling too far back (hard to tell with the footage used)
get some dedicated footage and I'll be able to give better help

Al


Thanks Al, will work on those things and recruit a cameraman in the near future.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7855 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke

Rightarmbad wrote: Forget about the stroke; how did that guy fall out in that almost mirror conditions?


I know?!!! It shocked a few of us, I train with the fella and he is a rocket in sprints, I thought he must have collided with someone, clashed paddles, something of an excuse??? Nope, he couldnt explain it, one minute he was flying along, the next he was swimming.

I was disappointed not only for him but me to, wanted to see how we would go against one another.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7863 by lost john
Replied by lost john on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Hey Mr Convert,
Thanks for posting... Like Kiwial said it would good to have closeup side and front shots. But the one single thing I noticed, in the second video, is that you are "escaping". That is leaning away from the stroke side (I noticed because I make the same mistake too). If you are weighting your stroke foot/side more, you will get more power and the boat will be level, or I've seen even people lean into the stroke side a little. But I've been coached to keep my boat level.
cheers
John

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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #7864 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Cheers JOhn, yes one of the things I picked up on too. I have been having ITB problems which after a couple of months of treatment are thought to be stemming from glute problems, this may well be part of the cause, if the glutes are on/off trying to keep the hips level.

I did some paddling last night focusing on stroke and rotation.

Your comment however just illicited the thought that I may be driving with the wrong foot, when I sit on the floor just now and go through the stroke it seems my inclination is to drive with the opposite foot :huh:... a quick google search and indeed I think I have been :dry: No wonder I'm wobbling about. I'll jump in the ski tonight and see if this is indeed the case..... this is what happens I guess when you coach yourself from what you read and see without any feedback.

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by AR_convert.

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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #7865 by egger
Replied by egger on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Foot drive should be on same side as paddle stroke to maximise rotation.
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by egger.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7866 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
I'd also forget about the stroke and get a haircut. I reckon you could get about 2kmh quicker with the reduced wind resistance.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7868 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke

Dicko wrote: I'd also forget about the stroke and get a haircut. I reckon you could get about 2kmh quicker with the reduced wind resistance.


Being a 42 year old Uni student (whose previous occupations required that I have very short hair) it's my last opportunity to look like a hippy before I return to the workplace next year ;)

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7873 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
What if it's a tailwind?

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7879 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Thanks to my father in law I have some better video.

Recorded in short 15 second bursts or so.

From the front




From the side



Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7885 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
In my unqualified opinion, your biggest problem is still your hair.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7886 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
That and the fact that you have a shitty catch and the stroke doesn't start until the paddle already has it's blade pointing at the bottom of the ocean.

Shitty catch leading to a stroke that extends too far back and the resultant forces trying to submerge your boat instead of pushing you forward.

Reach forward before you put your blade in so that the paddle is more vertical throughout the stroke and make your forces point forward.
This will also make you get the paddle out of the water earlier behind you.

It's just like swimming, reach forward and get a good catch before you pull.

I'd put you on a 210cm or less paddle, this will encourage you to reach forward more before you start the stroke.

Please note, I am self taught and know nothing but physics and what works for me.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 2 weeks ago #7889 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke

Rightarmbad wrote: It's just like swimming, reach forward and get a good catch before you pull.

I'd put you on a 210cm or less paddle, this will encourage you to reach forward more before you start the stroke.


Thanks RAB....I think :dry:

Wouldnt a longer paddle help me to get the blade in earlier?

Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 2 weeks ago #7890 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
Getting the blade in earlier by using a longer paddle will do nothing to correct your deficiency, what is required is for you to rotate and reach before putting the blade in, a long paddle will hinder that process.

I personally found that a very short paddle makes me rotate fully and reach far forward before putting the blade in.

It takes a lot of practice to become good at using a paddle that just reaches the water.
I'm running 205cm at present.
Yet I still stroke slower than those around me, thanks to good rotation and a forward catch.

My paddle hits the water about 30cm in front of my feet, goes vertical very quickly as my top hand comes across, then the foot pushes and the whole torso rotates with the paddle still vertical and then comes out as soon as the thigh on the pushing leg touches down (or close) to the hump.
The paddle has already started to be pushed forward by my top hand and is headed out for the next catch.

It really makes you think about your forward hand.
As soon as you start reaching far forward, you will find that you automatically rotate.

A short blade also exits very early and cleanly with no water being thrown back, the paddle comes out of the water in a forward motion as you push it forward into the start or the next catch.

I've been on borrowed boats for the last three days and after being off the water for a month, I really only got my stroke back yesterday.
But today it all clicked and I could use the short length again.

Even if you don't end up using an extreme short length generally, I find it a valuable training tool.
It targets all the things that are most obviously lacking in your videos.

Thinking about a lot of rotation usually leads to a too long stroke behind you, where the problem really is cured by starting further out front and concentrating on the start of the stroke.
Once you start it wrong, everything is wrong from then on back.
Get the start right an there is a good chance the whole stroke will step into place.

Again, I've coached heaps of things 'except' paddling, so what I say, is what I have found out for myself doing a bit of thought about how a paddle best interacts with a paddler and the water.

So everything I do technique wise, is aimed at getting the resultant force to go forward, and me to engage as much musculature as possible, that's what I think about.
Take it all with a large grain of salt and do a little critical thinking for yourself.

Lift force is perpendicular to drag force, so the resultant force pretty much is an arrow that comes out at 90 degrees to the curved forward face of your blade.

If your blade faces down, then that's where the power is going, you're just trying to submerge the boat.

The longer the paddle, the larger the angle change your paddle makes throughout the stroke.
A short paddle has a smaller angle change and keeps the power facing the best way and discourages extreme paddle angles that waste energy.
Once the blade goes past your hips, it faces down.
If you run a short paddle and rotate, as soon as your rotation ends the paddle comes out at the hips as it is pushed forward for the new catch.
This results in a very short high force peak, aligned in the most desirable direction, that is the best way to power a ski; for the very same reasons that two paddlers must paddle in sync.

Read the article on this board for a very good explanation of why the forces from two paddlers must be in sync and you will see the rational behind the short high force peak I aim for.

Happy thinking, and do try a shorter paddle if you can.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 2 weeks ago #7892 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Analyse my stroke

Rightarmbad wrote: My paddle hits the water about 30cm in front of my feet, goes vertical very quickly as my top hand comes across, then the foot pushes and the whole torso rotates with the paddle still vertical and then comes out as soon as the thigh on the pushing leg touches down (or close) to the hump.
Happy thinking, and do try a shorter paddle if you can.


Thanks RAB. What you say makes sense, will wind my paddle back to 210 (was set at 213) and try to improve rotation, catch and exit earlier.

It's really nothing I hadn't already read and heard, but to have all this re-enforced and applied to me personally has made me even more determined to improve the catch.

Foot drive should be on same side as paddle stroke to maximise rotation


Thanks Steve for that material you sent me, again some good dot point to remember as I paddle. As it turned out when I got on the water yesterday I was driving with the correct leg, just got muddled up when not in the boat :blush:

I can see a lot of technique sessions in the next few weeks replacing my normal paddles :dry:

Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 2 weeks ago #7894 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
For me personally, the most important thing I do for technique is to paddle really fast, as in all out efforts.
If it ain't right, you go all over the place.

My stroke, paddle length all come together when paddling hard, as soon as I back off, the rotation lessens and the forward reach lessens.

So if I want to think about technique and go slow, I will pull real hard and let the boat glide as I wait ready for the catch.
I think you will find this a pretty common type of drill.

This allows all of the components to come together at a force and speed of movement that are relevant without blowing your energy.

Due to my back injury I also don't tend to get in stride until I have paddled a couple of km and everything loosens up.

Just as an aside, if you don't paddle back behind you and keep the stroke in front, you loose what most find to be the single most unstabilising part of the stroke, the last part where your paddle is just about to come out of the water and there a bouts.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 2 weeks ago #7896 by beejay65
Replied by beejay65 on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
RAB, what you are saying makes sense to me as I have just got back in the boat after a layoff doing other stuff.

I am doing a few drills and one of them is to mentally finish the stroke earlier than I used to. I always used to have far too long a stroke. Since doing this drill I have found the boat glides a lot better and I don't seem to get wet as much. Not from falling out but my stroke was so long I used to lift water up and spalsh it on my head!

I don't do the full speed drill but I have noticed that when I paddle into the wind have a better stroke, presumably from reaching further in front which seems to match what your saying.

BJ

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11 years 2 weeks ago - 11 years 2 weeks ago #7903 by Kocho
Replied by Kocho on topic Re: Analyse my stroke
I'm not qualified to give advice, but I did notice the same things so I'm glad others suggest it too: the catch is late and I think there could be more rotation on both ends of the stroke (catch and exit).

The one thing I did not see mentioned here yet is that the ski is wobbling a lot. Here in the second set of videos, the water is a bit choppy, so some of the wobbling seems due to balance. But even there I think I see a pattern that you are edging the ski on each stroke - this is more visible in the race segment where you wobble with each stroke from left to right.

What do the more skilled think about the ski wobbling?

And don't listen about the hair - it reminds me of Simon and Garfunkel's look and I like their music so, why not ... Of course, if you are still wearing pants that widen below the knee and hide most of your shoes, then there might be some deeper issues there ;) ...
Last edit: 11 years 2 weeks ago by Kocho.

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