× Tips and techniques for getting the most out of surfskiing.

Leg drive

More
12 years 1 week ago #11862 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Leg drive
Zachandler, please feel free to explain the levers.

I know levers, but Bartons comment is too vague too mean anything.

I didn't say anywhere he didn't know anything, just that his comment did not offer any clear insight as to the workings of the paddling stroke.

Again, feel free to enlighten me and the rest on this forum how the levers work.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 week ago #11863 by Marieski
Replied by Marieski on topic Re: Leg drive
Kocho, when I got my leg drive going (or so it felt), when I came off the water I had soreness/tiredness in my hips, quads and hams as well as bum muscles. I had not much at all in shoulders (which I don't normally get anyway) but had incipient compartment syndrome in my forearms. I assumed from this that I was using new muscles, not overusing the upper limb old muscles, but putting more strain on my forearms because I had more power in my stroke. So I interpreted the feelings as a validation;that my legs truly were contributing. By this assumption, I should keep doing what I'm doing and the lower limb discomfort should go away as the muscles become more trained, and I should remain faster. : )

I also note that Knut showed yaw as well as roll. So do I. We both have a relatively horizontal stroke. I think that is the only thing we have in common.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 week ago #11865 by [email protected]
Replied by [email protected] on topic Re: Leg drive
Re the concept of "leverage".

I'm no expert but I've often heard the top guys talking about better "leverage" from sitting higher in the seat. I've experienced this for myself - comparing a ski with a deep seat (like the Fenn Mako Elite) with the Nelo, which has a very high seat. The stroke feels much more comfortable in the high seat - by comparison I feel almost cramped in the low seat of the Elite.

However - for me, any advantage in the better position ("leverage"), is more than offset by the disintegration of my stroke caused by instability in choppy water. So overall, I get a better result in a deeper seat because of reduced tippiness.

But... I have written to Greg to ask for a clearer explanation from him.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 week ago #11866 by Hiro
Replied by Hiro on topic Re: Leg drive

Note that Kemecsey is not saying that edging the kayak, "locks it" in the water. His belief is that if you press (not edge) the kayak against the "water wall" (water pressure) on the non-stroke side, combined with the paddle thrust on the other side, that the kayak will shoot forward (like squeezing a bar of soap) and will run straighter.

I tried to focus on that during yesterday's paddle : use the lateral support you get from the water into a forward motion... not easy.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 1 week ago #11867 by gstamer
Replied by gstamer on topic Re: Leg drive

Hiro wrote:

Note that Kemecsey is not saying that edging the kayak, "locks it" in the water. His belief is that if you press (not edge) the kayak against the "water wall" (water pressure) on the non-stroke side, combined with the paddle thrust on the other side, that the kayak will shoot forward (like squeezing a bar of soap) and will run straighter.

I tried to focus on that during yesterday's paddle : use the lateral support you get from the water into a forward motion... not easy.


In my limited experience you don't feel the "water wall" itself, as much as see the effect as an improvement in speed and a smoother running kayak. However it is easy to feel your hip and torso move laterally to the opposite side of the seat/bucket and put pressure on the kayak. Kemecsey says that he isn't sure that kayakers like Knut Holmann were aware of the "water wall" principle.

What is interesting about techniques like this is that once you know about them, you can start to develop an awareness of them.

For example, take the "torso swing", where your torso swings from side to side, opposite the paddle, during a stroke. In my case, I studied footage of Barton and Chalupsky for years on their forward paddling DVD, and it seemed to me that their head was perfectly stationary. However as soon as I was introduced to this technique I instantly saw that their heads, and bodies, swung from side to side. This is especially noticable in the footage viewed head-on. This was a real revelation to me, because up to that point I thought that your spine should remain perfectly vertical, while rotating around it.
In other words, until I knew about this, I saw only what I expected to see.

Greg Stamer
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kayaker Greg

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 6 days ago #11868 by Davidw
Replied by Davidw on topic Re: Leg drive
In my opinion by sitting higher your paddle can enter the water closer to vertical which should give you a more effective and powerful stroke - a better angle of attack?
I would think the "leverage" is muscular/skeletal and due to the direction and strength of force that can be applied.
I think you can apply more force to your blade if it is more vertical than if it enters the water at a flatter angle.
See how much force you can apply with your front hand in a downward direction (when seated in a ski) as opposed to the greater force you can apply rearward.
Leverage may be the wrong word here but I understand what Greg means.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 6 days ago #11871 by [email protected]
Replied by [email protected] on topic Re: Leg drive
Here's the reply from Greg Barton to my email asking for more explanation about the concept of leverage that he mentioned in his book:

Sitting higher gives you a longer, more powerful stroke, since there is more distance between your hands and the water. However, I think it's overrated. The VAST majority of paddlers are better off sitting lower and more stable. Increasing the seat height by 20mm theoreticially may give 0.5% more power, but more often than not will result in 10% less power because technique then suffers due to instability.


In my circumstances (definitely not the world's best balance) I agree with him 100%. I feel the better "leverage" from a higher seat, but I do suffer imbalance in such skis.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 3 days ago #11889 by Kocho
Replied by Kocho on topic Re: Leg drive
Looking at the recent Molokai video, it seems that Oscar's knees are way up his chin. Is this his style or there is some advantage to having them so high-up? Some of the other paddlers have them higher than I think necessary, but none as high as him... Look at 5:30 mark in the Epic video and then to the finish to see what I'm looking at.

I have just about one fist under both my knees (when both are up), but my legs are long so the resulting angle is not nearly as sharp...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 2 days ago #11893 by isotopez
Replied by isotopez on topic Re: Leg drive
When I first started paddling surfski I had my knees higher than they are now. For about 4-6 months it was okay and then I started getting very tight hip flexors. I attributed it to the fact that I wasn't really relaxing them since they were always in a more flexed position.

I got a ski with a lower hump and dropped them down further and with a little stretching I haven't noticed it anymore. Guys were telling me I had my knees too high before but I rarely noticed any discomfort paddling under 2 hours. I think that when you drive each leg to almost full extension the muscle gets a chance to fully stretch, I wasn't getting that with high knees..

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 2 days ago #11894 by Kayaker Greg
Replied by Kayaker Greg on topic Re: Leg drive
I had the exact same problem as you isotpez with the painful hip flexors in my V10L. Went to a Stellar SES with a lower hump and the problem has gone.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 2 days ago #11897 by kemi
Replied by kemi on topic Re: Leg drive
Oscar is sitting in a V12 and in this boat the hump is very low. So not being able to get your legs down, is not a issue. I did however see him fiddle with something attached to the front bungee, when he crossed the finish line. So the footrest must have been maxed out, so maybe that is the explanation for the bent knees. Looking at other footage from Molokai, I spotted that he is using leg drive. How that is possible, when his knees are at that angle, is a bit of a puzzle. Another thing is about the choice of boat. When you read about the V12, it is supposed to be faster then a K1 with a 80 Kg paddler. I assume that they are talking about the carbon version. So the trim is at it's optimal with a total weight of 90 Kg. He is a big guy, so the choice of boat also seems weird. Here is the reference : www.epickayaks.com/news/news/development-of-the-v12-surfski

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 4 hours ago #11913 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Leg drive
The V12 is quite short in the legs.
He would have been maxed out.

That's why Bowman paddles the V10.

The V12 is still faster for the heavier guys than a V10, and once you are up around the 90kg mark it is remarkably stable with a stronger sense of secondary than the V10.

It also has a more forward weight distribution and jumps onto smaller stuff a little easier.

So if Oscar is happy running his legs a little short, then the V12 is the boat for him.

A lot of smaller guys are scared of it though.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 11 months ago #11917 by GlenRusky
Replied by GlenRusky on topic Re: Leg drive
"I did however see him fiddle with something attached to the front bungee, when he crossed the finish line."

Hey Kemi, my guess is he was stopping his forerunner 310XT just as he crossed the finish line ;)

Current Ski: Nelo 550 ML (4 WWR)
Previous Skis: Fenn Spark - carbon, Vajda Hawx elite, Fenn Swordfish - carbon, Fenn Elite - carbon

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics