Not again

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7709 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Not again

Rightarmbad wrote: So my saga continues.

A new problem is evolving.
I don't have a ski and I am now approaching 4 weeks without a paddle.
I've forgotten how to paddle and balance a ski.
I don't feel like I am going to fall out, but the ski's I tried will no longer sit steady for me and move around a lot as I paddle.
I have very little forward reach and my precision putting the paddle in just not there.
So now I am trying to evaluate new skis and I have no boat to be a control, made worse by me having now regressed in my general boat skills.
It really makes getting a solid impression of different ski quite hard.


Feel for you mate, same thing happened to me when I sold my V10L, thinking I would be getting a new ski pretty soon after, but circumstances (holidays interstate) and waiting for boats to become available meant a lot of time off.

Funnily enough the ski I was most looking forward to paddling was the new (at the time) SES, which when I jumped on was as you described "not sit steady". This I realised would be the case with almost any top end ski after losing my stability "touch". I had paddled a friends SES a couple of months prior and remembered it being much more user friendly.

So the lesson here as you say is to have a "control boat", if you are thinking of changing ski's, paddle the ones you are interested in before you sell your current ski.

Rightarmbad wrote: First up I jumped in an SE thinking that it would be the most similar to my V10.

Nup, it's just weird, the bucket is tight side to side, but fore and aft, there is just no one place to sit, it feels like it is made for a giant and there is no feeling of oneness with the ski.
I did get the highest top speed in that boat though.
Very wide catch.
Also the first ski I have sat in that accommodated big feet with a taller footboard.


Have to agree here too, I paddled one of the first ones in WA and while it was fast it just felt awkward, and all that volume high in the nose made it catch crosswind like sailboat :huh:

I paddled a carbon version last weekend that a fella had just bought, yep, sure is fast, but again, not my cuppa tea, would be hard getting used to that wide catch after paddling very narrow catch ski's. Mind you, if I can pick up a cheap 2nd hand one with a surf rudder, would be a great downwind only ski I reckon.

Rightarmbad wrote:
Next, I jumped in the SES, mainly because it was a lot narrower and offered a far better catch than the quite wide SE. I also believe in giving things ago even if my initial thoughts were that is too small.Much better, the ski felt like it was very 'chuckable', with a good connection to the ski.
A slightly slower top speed, probably because it is shorter, but felt to be easier to paddle in the 13 to 14kmh range.
Overall, I like it, but I worry about it's lack of volume for a bigger type.


I wouldn't write off the small ski's, I think we are about the same size (87kg, 190cm) and I paddle a Carbonology Vault. I love this small ski, you do have to guide them a lot more in downwind to avoid burying the nose, but I have seen big gains in my paddling in this ski.

I must admit I haven't paddled the Think ski's, the fact that only the very best paddler in our area is the only one who can paddle a "Max" in downwind rings alarm bells to this mere mortal and I was turned off prior to that seeing a whole wall of different model Thinks in a one stop adventure sports shop with cracks around the scuppers had me questioning the build.

It seems that there are a lot more of them in the Eastern states (something to do with marketing and support perhaps?)

Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7710 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re: Not again

Rightarmbad wrote:
Many thanks to Julian for traveling down and showing me some boats.


Great to hear you had a demo with Julian, and I hope you enjoyed the Uno Max.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7712 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re: Not again

AR_convert wrote:
I must admit I haven't paddled the Think ski's, the fact that only the very best paddler in our area is the only one who can paddle a "Max" in downwind rings alarm bells to this mere mortal and I was turned off prior to that seeing a whole wall of different model Thinks in a one stop adventure sports shop with cracks around the scuppers had me questioning the build.

It seems that there are a lot more of them in the Eastern states (something to do with marketing and support perhaps?)


If you haven't paddled Think skis, then why make such sweeping comments on their performance? There are several Uno Maxes in WA, and each of the guys paddling them love them. The Max was a ground up development of what we learned from the Uno, the result is a ski that is more stable, has more volume to suit bigger guys, and bigger conditions. The fact that there may be only one in your area hardly warrants questioning the ski's ability? Maybe a better idea would be to ask your friend who paddles one to borrow it for a downwind paddle and see what it can do? Then you would be in a far better position to comment, rather than work off personally arrived opinion. The Max has proved itself at the pointy end of racing, winning in Dubai, and having some podiums in the AORS in the first few months of release, both in downwind and flatwater conditions. We are working hard to bring new and exciting ideas to the market, and the way in which the Max in particular has been received tells us we are on the right track with our product development. Of course, not everyone is going to like everything we do, and that is the beauty of the consumer having a choice of product and brand.
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11 years 3 weeks ago - 11 years 3 weeks ago #7714 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Not again

Stew wrote: If you haven't paddled Think skis, then why make such sweeping comments on their performance?


A bit defensive there Stew :huh:

Umm, I dont think I said anything about thier performance, however if I was to have, I'd say they are a very fast boat in the right hands given what I have seen A/B grade paddlers do in them.

Umm, sweeping comments :dry: and what were they Stew? That the best paddler in our area is the one who can paddle a Max?

Perhaps I should have said that the best paddler in our area is the only one paddling a Max! There, does that sound better :P

Another way of looking at it may have been, wow, the best paddler in the area is paddling a Max, must be a good ski B)

Stew wrote:
The fact that there may be only one in your area hardly warrants questioning the ski's ability?


Again..how did I question it's ability...by inferring that I might fall out of it :whistle:

Stew wrote: Then you would be in a far better position to comment, rather than work off personally arrived opinion.


Got news for you mate, unless we start publishing scientific data on ski's performance in tank testing we are all offering personal opinion....only some peoples opinions hold more weight than others, and to be fair that's why I started my paragraph with the fact that I have never paddled them, that way the reader can automatically weigh up what I say following that ;)

Great to have your input on the forum mate, at least you are engaged with the grass roots paddlers :)

EDIT: I will add that the comments regarding the cracked scuppers were to simply point out that as a consumer, it placed doubt in my mind, I have no idea how they got there, perhaps the shop had dropped every one of their ski's or people had sat in them while they were on the floor, in any case, not a good look! One of the reasons I now look to buy from paddlers in the sport who care about this sort of thing.

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 11 years 3 weeks ago by AR_convert. Reason: addition

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7715 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re: Not again

AR_convert wrote:

Stew wrote: If you haven't paddled Think skis, then why make such sweeping comments on their performance?


A bit defensive there Stew :huh:

Umm, I dont think I said anything about thier performance, however if I was to have, I'd say they are a very fast boat in the right hands given what I have seen A/B grade paddlers do in them.

Umm, sweeping comments :dry: and what were they Stew? That the best paddler in our area is the one who can paddle a Max?

Perhaps I should have said that the best paddler in our area is the only one paddling a Max! There, does that sound better :P

Another way of looking at it may have been, wow, the best paddler in the area is paddling a Max, must be a good ski B)

Stew wrote:
The fact that there may be only one in your area hardly warrants questioning the ski's ability?


Again..how did I question it's ability...by inferring that I might fall out of it :whistle:

Stew wrote: Then you would be in a far better position to comment, rather than work off personally arrived opinion.


Got news for you mate, unless we start publishing scientific data on ski's performance in tank testing we are all offering personal opinion....only some peoples opinions hold more weight than others, and to be fair that's why I started my paragraph with the fact that I have never paddled them, that way the reader can automatically weigh up what I say following that ;)

Great to have your input on the forum mate, at least you are engaged with the grass roots paddlers :)



You stated the following:

"I must admit I haven't paddled the Think ski's, the fact that only the very best paddler in our area is the only one who can paddle a "Max" in downwind rings alarm bells to this mere mortal."


That is a statement of fact, and one which I disagree with, and why I will be defensive of the design. You are stating as fact that only one guy in your area can handle the ski. Forums have a very big influence on buyers' decisions, and reading a statement such as yours will influence peoples' decisions and possibly push them away from a design that could be exactly what they are after. I'm happy to say there any many of my customers who are not elite level paddlers who thoroughly enjoy the Uno Max and what it offers them as both a flatwater and downwind craft.

The very best way to decide what ski is ideal for you, is to try all the skis available, and that is what I encourage all paddlers to do. Only then will they know they have made the correct purchase to suit their skill set, paddling goals, physiology and budget. Time on the water is precious, and we all want to be doing it on a craft we love.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7716 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Not again
Now here is the kicker.

Unless I simply ordered a boat without paddling them, yesterday was the very first day that I could have purchased a ski. And then there was only a slim chance of even doing that.

I didn't because I was not in a position to fully judge the ski's due to my not having paddled.

Epic don't have a V10 to sell me, which would have been my fallback as I know I already fit the bucket and didn't have too many complaints about it's handling.
Vajder are out of stock also.

I still don't know if a Fenn Elite SL bucket will suit me after extended time in it, and the demo boat has been unavailable.

So, for the last three weeks I have been wandering around with a willingness to buy a new ski, but the industry simply couldn't provide me with one.


Now this is not leveled at any brand in particular, it is a comment on the entire industry.
The crazy current model works fine if I still had a boat and spent the next few months gathering test rides and information and then ordering a boat.

But without a workable boat to paddle in the meantime, it's just too bloody hard.
I've had my ski long enough now to know what I want, so the next boat I get will most likely be a lighter one, and one that I will settle into for a couple of years while I see where paddling takes me.

But supply across the board is patchy and sporadic to say the least.


Now I AM going to start pointing the finger.

I am thinking that the wholesale side of things here, are just not doing their job.
Wholesalers now expect retailers to cover stock levels for extended periods.
And I suspect and have a little bit of insight, that the wholesalers ask the retailers for hard numbers before they start filling up containers.

So my question to the wholesalers is: Why are you in existence?

If the retailer has to take over half of your major role, why do we the consumer, have to put up with you taking a slice of the pie?
We as consumers can understand that a retailer simply does not have room to carry huge volume of different brands and models.

But that is what the wholesaler/ importer is for.

Or is the market so bloody strong that producers cannot supply enough ski's.

Anyone care to stand in front of my pointed finger and tell me what the hell is causing the breakdown in the supply chain across the board in Australia.

From my semi blind outside the industry looking in view, what I can see, is that the first producers to simply take over distribution of their product, hire a local to work for them, send in enough skis to cover demand and stop profits disappearing to a middle man, will make a bloody killing.

It's just a form of value adding for the producer, take over the complete supply line until it hits the shelves of the retailer.

Or if an area has enough sales to warrant a single brand outlet, (doubtful), retail the bloody things yourself.


At least put in the wholesaler/importers contract, that they must somehow fulfill the role of carrying stock, and let the pastime of flinging ourselves along at the mercy of the waves, grow.


In the end, there is more than one boat to suit most people, if there is one in stock and another not in stock, and you want to buy a boat, which one are you going to buy.......

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7719 by Nat Bradford
Replied by Nat Bradford on topic Re: Not again
If you spent as much time paddling as you did pointing fingers at the rest of the known universe on this forum, you'd be a much happier person.

Just how many skis do you think are sold globally each year, and just how many do you expect retailers or wholesalers to hold?

Ever tried buy a new car with a couple of extras? Strangely, not every dealer in the country has the exact thing your looking for and until Australia starts manufacturing skis en masse, I expect you'll be a sad customer for a long time to come.
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11 years 3 weeks ago #7727 by thames
Replied by thames on topic Re:Not again

Rightarmbad wrote: Hi Stewart.

My comments come from my own experience.

Unlike Epic , which has a local shopfront, 'Think' to me is quite invisible.
Having spent the last 2 years getting over injuries, I have never raced.
I was intending to have a go in the next few months now that I am pretty much recovered.


RAB, I've read quite a few of your posts on the forum, and I appreciate your passion for the sport.

From my own experiences, I really think your best bet is to get your hands on something fairly stable and get some races under your belt. Ocean racing is a niche sport and without a doubt the easiest way to see and try various boats is to turn up at races. At most races there are people with a wide variety of skis and people love chatting about what they see as pro and cons. Most of the paddlers are really decent and once you get to know them they're usually okay if you ask for a quick spin in their ski after the race.

Also, at lots of the races various manufactures show up with skis to demo or at least look at. I guess this is the easiest and most efficient way for them to show their products to the paddlers out there.

Currently I've got a Vadja....which is fantastic. But in all honesty, I've came to a point where I'd pretty much be happy to paddle want ever I can hands on to be part of the race rather than miss out.

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11 years 3 weeks ago #7736 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re:Not again
Thames, I have not raced because I could never until recently, be sure if I was fit to paddle.
Not because I was scared of the boat.
When the muscles in your back and hips go guarded because they are protecting injury, it doesn't matter what craft you are in, you will probably fall off, and possibly cause further injury doing so.

I rehabilitated myself through my paddling.
I got out in conditions when I could, but if I was stiff/tight/in pain, then was no use trying anything but flat water.
As I improved and relapsed less, I got out more.

The couple of times I was convinced to go out when I really knew I shouldn't, I fell off a couple of times.
Got wet, got cold, paid for it for a couple of weeks.

Not the sort of position to be in to commit to a race, or place race organisers in.

I've pretty much got it beat now and was planning to race in the coming weeks. I was getting out in all conditions almost every day, Until I broke my boat that was. I haven't fell out of my boat 10 times yet,( I fell out 6 times in 2 paddles, those were the days I simply shouldn't have gone out) so I don't really think that I should not consider elite skis.


In the mean time I slowly built a base and got stronger, and I am now ready to start race pace stuff and see what I can do.

I know that when I am hurt that it don't matter what boat I sit in, I won't handle the waves.
When I'm not, then I was pretty comfy in my V10.

The main reason I bought the ski was to rehabilitate myself.
My goal was only to be able to head out in the ocean by the end of this coming summer.
So far, well ahead of expectations.

I also just enjoy being out there, I don't judge my enjoyment of the past time by my race results.
Been there done that in other sports.
But I am getting curious now, hence I want a good boat.

I still ride my MTB, I don't race, but can sure have a lot of fun with a bunch of friends. And you sure as hell won't catch me on a piece of shit bike.
If I could still run, I would, but I don't think I would race anymore, I already know what I am capable off and used to just straight enjoy it.

Surf ski is new to me and still a novelty I want to explore.
But racing is not my priority until I know I have developed some speed that I believe that I am capable of.
Why pay money for entries and travel just to turn up.
I can go anywhere I like and paddle for free, or just walk down the hill and throw it in the water.

When I want to know here I stand, I'll race, and that's not far away now that I have these stupid busted discs out of the way.

Nat, are you not curious why I can't buy a ski in the surf ski capitol of the world.
Something wrong there. And this forum is the best way to tease out a response.
I looked last night and there were 641 people viewing the forums.
This is no longer back room niche stuff, surf ski is about to bloom.

Just because I ask probing questions, doesn't mean I am unhappy, just an independent thinker that gets curious and wants to know the why of things.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 11 months ago #8023 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re:Not again
So, still no ski, but I have now had extended testing in all the boats I'm interested in.
I've been back in the water enough testing that I can now make good judgements.

I have now had good service from Think, Stellar, Epic and Vajder, as well as Fenn.

The good thing is that a few weeks has made all the difference with there now being supply of most boats.

I even have a loaner boat thanks to Matt Carter.

Now I just have to make up my mind.........my head hurts.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 10 months ago #8461 by Colnagodreaming
Replied by Colnagodreaming on topic Re: Not again
Hi Stew

I have a bit of an issue, over here in WA, in that the retailer of Thinks over here (Mainpeak Cottesloe) was asking for $30-$40 dollars up front for customers to try out their Thinks Skis.

If one purchased the boat, that money was deducted off the purchase price. But if you didn't, well then, there goes the money. I'd love to start trying out some Thinks. Do you have retailers in Perth who have open days or are prepared to offer demos for free. I think it would improve your marketing out of site (and I would really like to take a couple out for a burl !!)

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10 years 10 months ago - 10 years 10 months ago #8462 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Not again
I presume you posted in this thread to see if I will bite.
Bait taken.

He is an idiot that is out of touch with his customers.

If he is not prepared to offer something more than an online seller, then who does he expect to sell to?

Even the backyard boys over here let you demo the ski. Either the guy is serious about selling them or he's not. Sounds like it is just a sideline for him, and a poorly though out one at that.

If you can arrange a demo of another brand of boat, call him and see if he would like to come down at the same time, or a time that suits him better and offer you a free demo.

If not, just write the brand off your short list unless there is another distributor in a reasonable distance..
After all, you are purchasing not only a boat, but a relationship with the seller and his suppliers.

If he cannot manage basic sales skills, how's he going to be if it comes to backup?

Anybody that thinks they can sell boats without allowing a customer to make an informed decision without forking out stupid amounts of bucks should simply get out of the game.

If he hits you with the, 'there's not enough margin in these things', just remind him, that if he sold a few more, the margin would not be an issue, and that he won't sell them until he makes some sort of commitment to do so.


Everybody wants to sell something these days.
Nobody wants to carry stock.
Even wholesalers are guilty of this.

Paid demos? C'mon!

They all complain that they cannot compete with online sellers, well if they offer nothing more, let them fade into the lost memories of other failed businesses.

Fact is, I would own a new boat right now if I could have purchased one a week after I broke mine.

I even convinced myself one afternoon another week later to go get one of any type that I was basically comfortable to sit in for a few minutes and take a gamble.
No one could sell me a boat!
They all let the sale slip by as I had to wait, which leaves me in a position to then pay more consideration to my purchase as I am now going to have to wait anyways.

For fuucks sake, if you want to call yourself a wholesaler, have stock to back up the retailer, if you want to call yourself a retailer, then be prepared to bloody sell the things, not just wait for somebody to call you up on the phone and say, I'll take two of those please........




:)
Hopefully Mr Think can sort out something for you.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 10 years 10 months ago by Rightarmbad. Reason: smily

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10 years 10 months ago #8469 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Not again
RAB,
what makes you think the post was aimed at you to see if you would bite. The post was clearly addressed to Stew. The question was clearly posted to see if Stew had an alternative distributor.
Not every post is put on here to see if you reply.
I would also like to see if there is an alternative distributor.
Your understanding of the logistics of importing skis is poor. A simple question requires a simple answer, not a diatribe on what pricks the rest of the known universe are.
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10 years 10 months ago - 10 years 10 months ago #8471 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re: Not again
Hi fellas,

Actually have a new agent in WA, Adam Fahey. Details can be found on our dealer page.

www.thinkkayak.com.au/dealers-3/

Adam has some demo skis at present, and will have some extra ones at the end of next week to have a really good range of gear to demo. You are more than welcome to try out any of the skis he has.

It's vital to try as many skis as possible before settling on buying one. You're going to spend a lot of time on your ski, you want each time on it to be fun. I look at my Uno tied outside on my ute, and cannot wait to get out on it every day. That's the kind of excited feeling a new ski should give all paddlers I reckon.

Drop Adam a line, he'll be more than happy to help out. If I can help with any information in the mean time, just let me know.

Cheers guys, have a great weekend.
Last edit: 10 years 10 months ago by Stew. Reason: Spelt Adam's surname incorrectly... oops!

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10 years 10 months ago #8477 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Not again

Stew wrote: Hi fellas,

Actually have a new agent in WA, Adam Fahy. Details can be found on our dealer page.

www.thinkkayak.com.au/dealers-3/

Adam has some demo skis at present, and will have some extra ones at the end of next week to have a really good range of gear to demo. You are more than welcome to try out any of the skis he has.

.


Great stuff! I had suspected this may eventuate and it is good news for paddlers in Perth. Very timely too given that I gave Think a serve a little while ago about Thinks presence here in WA . Adam is a paddlers paddler and given that he is based around Rockingham/mandurah has some excellent places for demo's.

Congrats Adam and well done Think!

Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 10 months ago #8482 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Not again
Hey Dicko, I put a smily in there.
He posted in a thread that is mainly my whinge about my trying to find a ski, I'm sure that that was no mistake.

Importing and selling ski's still have the same basic requirement of any other item.
If the wholesaler doesn't have stock, you can't sell what you don't have.
If a retailer doesn't wake up and make the customer the focus of their efforts, then he soon won't have customers.

As for all the other pricks in the world, I never mentioned them. :)

In this case it is great that Think are doing good by finding another, possibly far more suitable distributor in that neck of the woods.
And that I congratulate them for. (Along with a few other things like sticking their neck out and offering products and fitouts that others are only just starting to catch up on)
It is also great to see Think engaging the customer base in such a public forum.

Now in the overall scheme of things, surfski's patchy availability of stock and less than satisfactory customer relations, is what is going to allow other manufacturers/importers/distributors a foot in the door, so maybe it's a mixed blessing.
Cost cutting by carrying limited stock, always leads to less sales in the long run.
Especially when you get an unplanned disruption in your supply chain.

There you go, a bit more diatribe for you ignore/mull over/laugh at.



But all of my points are valid, and merely what a lot of other paddlers also think, but just aren't brave/rude/stupid enough to say it in public.

Many of my posts may be taken to be negative diatribe, but criticism is one of the ways that savvy marketers guide their future offerings.
Not taking them as negatives, but positives that allow them to fine tune their activities.

Oh, and here's another smiley ;)

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 10 months ago #8483 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Re: Not again
Must agree with RAB that Think/Stew is doing a great job being available to the surfski community through this forum

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10 years 10 months ago #8484 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Not again
It's ok to tell these guys to carry more stock, but you don't seem to realise that we're not dealing with plastic toys from China. You don't order 10,000 and then bung them in a container and a month later flood the market.
These things are largely handmade, fragile and about as awkward an item you could hope to transport around the world as you get.
When you can order them and get enough built to justify ordering a container then fitting 15-20 into that container, you have to find a boat, hope they survive the trip, go through customs, etc, etc. Supply and demand economies mentality only works when all legs of the chain are intact.
In this case supply is limited by the nature of the product. Ask Latman how many skis he can knock out in a day. Soory I missed your semicolon and end bracket.

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10 years 10 months ago #8485 by Colnagodreaming
Replied by Colnagodreaming on topic Re: Not again
Stew

thanks for the info regarding dealers in WA. Know young Adam and will get in touch with him.

cheers

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10 years 10 months ago #8486 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re: Not again

fredrik wrote: Must agree with RAB that Think/Stew is doing a great job being available to the surfski community through this forum


Thanks mate, very nice of you.

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