Dead Leg Problem

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14 years 3 weeks ago #4685 by Paddle2Fitness
Replied by Paddle2Fitness on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
You are about the 40th paddler that I have heard to have this problem. There is something very wrong with the set up of the Fenn ski. The peddles would be my first fix but you have tried that, after that a 10-20mm seat pad, with out the large holes. If this doesn't work sell it fast. Have a look out for the new Ozflyte R21.
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14 years 3 weeks ago #4688 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
P2F, by all means share your wealth of experience but dont slag off a brand only to insert a shameless plug for another brand :unsure: , I'm sure there are plenty of Fenn paddlers without problems. :huh: I realise that you are probably very enthuisiastic about this boat if you have paddled it and may wish to extol it's virtues to the world but to plug it here as a reply to a question of dead leg IMHO cheapens the brand. I had dead leg for the first few months paddling a new ski and as others have found realised that better flexibility, better core strength and stretching prior to paddling has fixed that. Didnt need to sell the boat. :huh: Looking forward to seeing a review soon on the Ozflyte boats. About time some Oz boats started mixing it with the big SA builders and that Canadian mob.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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14 years 3 weeks ago #4689 by Paddle2Fitness
Replied by Paddle2Fitness on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
AR - sorry it came across that way and you are right a number of top paddlers paddle Fenn's but as a coach i have seen and heard that the 'Dead Leg' problem is usually isolated to Fenn. I have not heard the same from Epic or the other skis that i have encouraged my clients to purchase over the past 18 months. If you have different information regarding this matter i would welcome your personal feedback.

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14 years 3 weeks ago #4695 by superted
Replied by superted on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
Paddle2Fitness wrote:

AR - sorry it came across that way and you are right a number of top paddlers paddle Fenn's but as a coach i have seen and heard that the 'Dead Leg' problem is usually isolated to Fenn. I have not heard the same from Epic or the other skis that i have encouraged my clients to purchase over the past 18 months. If you have different information regarding this matter i would welcome your personal feedback.


Ive had a "dead leg" at various times on all of the popular brand skis over the last 3yrs. For me the fix is getting the lower back realigned at the chiro (fixs the tight hammy and sciatica) and also not having the peddles to vertical as the foot plate angles are different on the skis.

As with other sports there is a condtioning phase with anything you do as a beginner, especially noticed when you try and lengthen the session time. eg doing yr first long run and having sore shins doesnt necessarily mean yrs shoes are bad and you need to flogg them on ebay.

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14 years 3 weeks ago #4696 by [email protected]
Just my 2c - in my experience too, the deadleg problem is not isolated to any one brand.

I suspect that Fenn being one of the oldest and most popular brands about, there are more reports of deadleg in Fenns simply because there are so many of them.

Compatibility between bum & ski is a highly variable and personal thing. For example my backside is allergic to the original V10 seat (but not the V12) and if I spend 5min in it without a bum pad my coccyx is rubbed raw. But 95% of paddlers have no problem with the V10.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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14 years 3 weeks ago #4697 by AndrewN
Replied by AndrewN on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
The best solution that i have found is a foam buttpad without holes, with another stuck on top with two large, oval shaped holes (running longways) for your 'butt bones' and sciatic nerve to sit in. This more evenly distributs the pressure as sitting on the hard seat of a boat generally squeezes the sciatic nerve directly against the bones and is sure to cut off blood supply and feeling regardless of what brand boat.

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14 years 3 weeks ago #4698 by AndrewN
Replied by AndrewN on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
The best solution that i have found is a foam buttpad without holes, with another stuck on top with two large, oval shaped holes (running longways) for your 'butt bones' and sciatic nerve to sit in. This more evenly distributes the pressure as sitting on the hard seat of a boat generally squeezes the sciatic nerve directly against the bones and is sure to cut off blood supply and feeling regardless of what brand boat.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4710 by Robmobius
Replied by Robmobius on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
I am have been following this post closely since posting my own very long winded thoughts on page 2. So I am overdue for another long winded post.

It seems that the anecdotal evidence from those posting supports the initial suspicions. This problem is apparently limited to a few factors

1. Tight rounded cockpits
2. Footplate / peddle angle
3. Poor flexiblity in the glutes, hamis and calves

The cockpit fit can be sorted out by changing boats or creating weird and wonderful but pad arrangements that effectively change the cockpit shape.

The peddles are easily made less vertical but the foot plate can be a bit tougher to alter, but that adjustment does seems secondary in effectiveness to change peddle angle.

Poor flexibility is the most complex factor. If you are as flexible as a piece of dry biltong, particular in the muscles along the back of you legs, your body will compensate in other areas when you try and fold yourself into a ski. Typically this means an excessively round back which can cause lower back problems. I think this why some guys are getting relief from chiropractors and core control and strengthening. But if you focus on the underlying cause of glute, hami and calf flexibility it will relief the psi on the lower back. I believe the lower back aspect is a symptom of the leg inflexibility.

Strengthening has been mentioned and I believe it will work not because its making the muscle stronger but rather its increasing the muscle bulk, creating a bigger cushion, kind of a built in but pad. Also focusing on training a muscle means a better conditioned and so flexible muscle.

When trying to solve the problem keep site of actual goal, trying to relieve psi on the sciatic nerve.

Through a combo of the above techniques I have managed to progress from 15min till complete numbness to 3 hrs of hard racing with no symptoms!!

But if I change boats I am back to square one which tells me boat fit is the most powerful factor.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4712 by Paddle2Fitness
Replied by Paddle2Fitness on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
The thing I don't understand with this whole Dead Leg Problem is that I have paddled surf life saving surf skis for 30 years and sprint kayaks for 25 years and not once have I heard of such a problem among any of my fellow paddlers than the ones I hear in ocean racing cycles.
A lot of you have come up with physical issues and solutions but it must all fall back to the design of the seat, footwell and foot pedals. I know I would be pissed if I just spent $4000 on a ski and then had to spend more money of chiro, physio or spend time re-shaping the seat and foot pedals.
I understand all paddlers are different and ocean racing has greatly increased the over all numbers of people paddling hence a great increase of possible problems but if there is a design fault we as paddler’s should be working with manufactures to help fix it at the source.
The only other way is spend as much time as possible (over an hour at any one time) paddling all the makes until you are happy.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4713 by [email protected]

we as paddler’s should be working with manufactures to help fix it at the source.


Good point.

I'll put up a poll to try and find out a) How many people suffer from this b) whether the problem seems to be related to a specific design and c) what people have done to solve the problem.

Any other questions we should be asking?

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4716 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
May very well be just that Ocean paddlers tend to paddle longer distances and that there are quite a few in the older categories paddling them.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4717 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
I have a ski and two kayaks.
Only problem I have is with one kayak.
This particular one has the front edge raised quite high on the seat.
It just doesn't suit my bum shape. Gives me a dad leg after about 10km.
My other kayak gave all sorts of problems to a now deceased friend of mine, I find it really comfortable.

The problem has existed for years, that's why there has been so many different seat accessories available.

The apparent problem in skis may just be a reflection of the small amount of models out there, they are bound to not suit somebody.
I don't think that I have ever seen two spec skies the same, there are that many different brands and variations, I think that there is enough choice to get one that suits your bum shape.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4721 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
robin.mousley wrote:

we as paddler’s should be working with manufactures to help fix it at the source.


Good point.

I'll put up a poll to try and find out a) How many people suffer from this b) whether the problem seems to be related to a specific design and c) what people have done to solve the problem.

Any other questions we should be asking?



Maybe ask age and occupation.


I meet many new comers to the sport, with lots being over 35, and many have office jobs. Some will have posture issues and combined with sitting in front of a computer all day, are more inclined to have lower back, hip and hamstring problems.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4730 by candela
Replied by candela on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
I have to agree since I'm one of those people you just described, minus the over 35.

I'm struggling to find a boat that doesn't give me a dead leg after 30min. I'm now making an effort to build strength in my legs and work on my flexibility. I think that my dead leg is 80% related to my hamstring tightness and lack of glute strength for padding, I never had this problem when I was more active.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4734 by [email protected]
Good points.

Is it a current problem?
What ski?
Have you EVER had the problem?
What ski?
Have you solved the problem?
How?
Your age?
Your occupation (desk job or not)?
How often do you paddle?
After how long does the dead leg kick in?

What else?

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4736 by nell
Replied by nell on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
To all those who still have a heck of a time with "dead leg" in a kayak or ski, it might be enlightening to do some control work on yourself.

For instance, see if you can merely sit on the carpeted floor in a paddling position with legs bent as much as they would be in a boat (watch TV or something to pass the time). If that position doesn't give you any troubles, then put a 2 cm book or board under your bum and try that (to elevate your bum relative to your heels), then try varying types of padding under your bum. Try positions with heels together and heels a few cm apart. Feet splayed out to the side vs together, knees out to the side vs together.

The other potential cause, which may be more difficult to duplicate on land, is pressure on your hips like you would get if a ski were too narrow for you.

If you can reproduce the symptoms on land, then it might be easier to work towards a fix there. You might then know what it is about the position in a certain boat that gives you trouble. But, if every position on land gives you troubles, then you may be better off focusing on your own issues like tight hamstrings, etc.
Erik Borgnes

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4738 by thebigadski
Replied by thebigadski on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
Paddle2Fitness wrote:

The thing I don't understand with this whole Dead Leg Problem is that I have paddled surf life saving surf skis for 30 years and sprint kayaks for 25 years and not once have I heard of such a problem among any of my fellow paddlers than the ones I hear in ocean racing cycles.
A lot of you have come up with physical issues and solutions but it must all fall back to the design of the seat, footwell and foot pedals. I know I would be pissed if I just spent $4000 on a ski and then had to spend more money of chiro, physio or spend time re-shaping the seat and foot pedals.
I understand all paddlers are different and ocean racing has greatly increased the over all numbers of people paddling hence a great increase of possible problems but if there is a design fault we as paddler’s should be working with manufactures to help fix it at the source.
The only other way is spend as much time as possible (over an hour at any one time) paddling all the makes until you are happy.


Hi Julian

I think we can all definitely adopt the "everybody's made different" approach!!

For me I found the worse seats for the most excruciating dead leg and pain were in spec skis and plastics skis modelled on a spec ski seat!!! (Finn Endorphin - Avon Descent)

My Hayden Spec which as we all know, not as pricey as an ocean racer, but still good hard cash thrown down on, was so frustratingly bad for my dead leg problem that I gave up my ambition to join our local SLSC! And every other spec I paddled after had the same feel!! (maybe I should av been in a club when I was a junior in Burnie :laugh: )

The most comfortable being the Icon and now Think Uno.
My Epic V10 also had a great seat.

So all I can suggest is for people to try different boats, the manufacturers can only do so much, it's up to us as the consumer to find a product that suits us as individuals, and therefore not buying a boat because your mate has one, or because all the pros paddle them!!!

my 2c

Happy paddling

Ads

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4739 by Paddle2Fitness
Replied by Paddle2Fitness on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
Hey Ads,

You are right on a number of pionts. You should not purchase an ocean racer because your mate has one or the pros are winning on a brand of ocean ski (most get paid in some way to paddle them anyway).
Surfski Info are currently doing a survey to see what boats affect which type of paddler. If the same manufacturer keeps coming up then i think they will have to make changes to keep sales. There are a number of ocean skis now available and yes it is up to the customer to find the right one.
In my 25 years of paddling i have never heard of a dead leg problem in surf life saving. I have not paddled every brand of spec ski but the ones i have Burton, Renegade, Dolphin and Ozflyte never gave me a dead leg. Very interesting you bring this up and i will discuss with my Kurrawa athletes to see if they have had the problem on spec skis.
Will let you know.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4740 by Paddle2Fitness
Replied by Paddle2Fitness on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
Dead Leg Problem

Have you EVER had the problem? & What ski?
I went to trial an Epic V12 / V10 and Fenn with a client 12 months ago. My right leg went to sleep within 5mins while paddling the Fenn. I had no seat pad but felt i was in my normal paddling position and felt confortable.

Your age? 36

Your occupation (desk job or not)? Athlete / Coach

How often do you paddle? I was a member of the AIS for 15 years in sprint canoeing and have paddled kayaks and spec skis for over 25 years. Highest Result - World Cup Champion is K2 and Silver in Australian and World Open Single Ski Championships

After how long does the dead leg kick in? 5 mins right leg.

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14 years 1 week ago #4787 by Jim Hiatt
Replied by Jim Hiatt on topic Re:Dead Leg Problem
I have alleviated my dead leg problem by using the 'seal-line' thigh support on my Fenn elite.
I had read on a kayak forum the benefit of tucking something under the thighs to help with deadleg. I then used a rolled-up small cloth towel (baby's nappy - clean) to trial the advice. My deadleg went from appearing in 20 minutes to 40 minutes. The cloth towel was uncomfortable and was hard to get in the correct position but at least the advice worked. After more research I found the seal-line thigh support which I hoped would be a better solution than the nappy.
The thigh support was a much better fit and I now don't suffer deadleg at all.
I also believe my setup was improved giving a more powerful paddling position.

Hope this helps.

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