Technique critique please

PharmGeek wrote:

Wingnut wrote: Thanks PharmGeek for posting your video.  I've never seen a paddling video shot from this angle and I found it really helpful.

yeah - I think I may be one of few to do it but I feel it is a great camera angle - if seen surfski videos by Oscar Chalupsky with some kinda mast stern rig that gives an almost similar view and that gave me the idea of an over head erg look - the over head look helps to see the rotation better in ways I think...but each perspective helps I think in some way perhaps. 

To the OP - do some more technique videos on that erg soon but slow it waaaay way down - that will help you to better see perhaps issues - up at high speed the transition from power phase to exit is a tad harder to visualize - if you slow down by 60%+ and post the issues may pop out visually more?

good luck! 

Here's one from today.


Not sure if I can go slower, the erg doesn't feel the same at super slow speed.
Also. I try to sweep my fists sideways at face level, I get to about the center line. It's somehow not that visible on the video. Could be the camera angle/settings, all that needs work.

Mostly what I am trying to do here is pretty simple, while the power is on the hands stay kinda "frozen", when the power is off I exit and straighten the top arm, i.e. it becomes a very easy and relaxed transition. Not sure how well I am managing to achieve it, but this is the narrative in my head.

EDIT: one more

I would definitely check out the Ivan Lawler video it is great. The thing I notice is the the paddle should pivot from your top hand, yours is currently pivoting about the centre of the paddle which is not powerful. Ivan explains it very well in his video.

Madpaddler75 wrote: I would definitely check out the Ivan Lawler video it is great. The thing I notice is the the paddle should pivot from your top hand, yours is currently pivoting about the centre of the paddle which is not powerful. Ivan explains it very well in his video.

Thanks. but I think I am getting overloaded. Need to find a video that shows it from the top so I can try to emulate it.

Check the paddlers at the world champs, look at 4hr 3 minutes 20 seconds and they have some great drone footage from above the leading
pack.

You’re punching with your top hand and pulling with your power hand. You should do the opposite with the top hand: hold it back. Distance between top hand’s shoulder and top hand should not change during the  blade entry and power phase of the stroke. Power arm should be more extended and stay in this position until the very end of the power phase.Pivot the  paddle shaft with your upper body while not changing the position of  the shaft and blades relative to your torso during catch and power phase.
Although it looks like you’re doing some torso rotation,, you’re not using it the way you should (you’re rotating for rotation’s sake only).
I think you need a fundamental change in how you’re using your arms during the stroke. Watch the Lawler video. It’s gold!!! Good luck!

Sputnik,

maybe contrast your technique with Max Hoff on the Speedstroke (yes I chose a champ on an erg and not in the boat as I believe that it a difference).

 
Max seems to do much less armwork than you, your arms are rather working like a treadmill.

Edit: Don't worry, I suffer from this too!

SpaceSputnik wrote: Would appreciate if someone analyzed my stroke shape. I know there was a glitch at some point with paddle entering too high, but how is it otherwise? 
Thank you.

Good on you for putting yourself out there like this. 

manta wrote:

SpaceSputnik wrote: Would appreciate if someone analyzed my stroke shape. I know there was a glitch at some point with paddle entering too high, but how is it otherwise? 
Thank you.

Good on you for putting yourself out there like this. 

Thanks. It's emotionally taxing...hopefully for a good return.

There is a guy about 30 miles from me who runs paddling coaching classes - he talks a lot about 'locking the frame'. 
So, once the blade is in the water, the relationship between arms-chest and opposing arm should not change for the majority of the power phase of the stroke. You 'lock' your arms, drive from the leg, hip, body; this will lead to a fairly vertical stroke. Keep it short, keep elbow low in the recovery.

For technique practice, make every stroke very considered and deliberate. Setup - pause - catch - pull - exit - Setup - pause.

How do you find different stability settings affect your technique? I know when I switch up to a less stable boat my rotation is the first thing that gets compromised. Not noticeable at first but if I switch back down I realise I can rotate much better and more deliberately.

Its great you are doing these vids as what you perceive you are doing is often not what you are actually doing. I see other paddlers and think they are not twist much, while I think I am exaggerating it, only to be told by someone else I need to rotate more.

I notice when Oscar demonstates his drills he doesn't keep head focused forward. I often practice like this. My K1 coach when paddling the river told me to look at one bank and then the other...remember this is a drill only to help develop rotation. It takes confidence in your balance to do so though

I just now saw your most recent video upload on this thread.....thats a bummer you cannot go slower....either way...I watched it...saw a few things perahaps...it helps me to slow mo watch it...what I saw:

I think if you watch it slow, your position/form or shape varies a good bit...for example...watch the overhead video...watch the right top hand position during power phase and at setup...that top hand will start fairy further away from your head/torso than the left does...I think when you watch that playback also again and key in on where you are applying power, your lower hand is off and on still pulling early...I think it may be worse on the left side with left hand as the lower pull hand, you begin pulling pretty early? 

You are rotating great I think!  I think a few tweaks to keep that solid form and a better catch, and you are going to kill it! ill watch it again later and do another video from mine later to reflect....id try to go slower, even if it looks and feels like crap, it will help....? 

Take care....ill post mine on here for comparison to yours

I think if you focus on starting the catch a bit more vertical...think of the top hand being closer to your head at setup for the catch, then start catch initiating with top hand, pulling with bottom, keeping bottom arm straight.

Good luck!! and have fun

Again, I’m just sharing thoughts as a fellow paddler, so others may correct me

waverider wrote: How do you find different stability settings affect your technique? I know when I switch up to a less stable boat my rotation is the first thing that gets compromised. Not noticeable at first but if I switch back down I realise I can rotate much better and more deliberately.

I haven't really focused on the balance aspect of the erg so far, but couple of different stability levels didn't seem to matter much. Just prior to the season close, I paddled a SES for about a month (primarily on the flat, maybe one day with 1 foot waves). I felt that I got better at keeping centered and  not spilling sideways. 
However, after tech analysis here I am not sure of anything anymore. Anyway, haven't been an issue so far.



Its great you are doing these vids as what you perceive you are doing is often not what you are actually doing. I see other paddlers and think they are not twist much, while I think I am exaggerating it, only to be told by someone else I need to rotate more.


a picture is worth....



I notice when Oscar demonstates his drills he doesn't keep head focused forward. I often practice like this. My K1 coach when paddling the river told me to look at one bank and then the other...remember this is a drill only to help develop rotation. It takes confidence in your balance to do so though


Yes, I know, but it's a double edged sword, at least in my case. I have a huge problem not looking where I am going, so I'd be leery of anything that encourages looking anywhere but dead ahead. It's a safety issue.

PharmGeek wrote: I just now saw your most recent video upload on this thread.....thats a bummer you cannot go slower....either way...I watched it...saw a few things perahaps...it helps me to slow mo watch it...what I saw:

I think if you watch it slow, your position/form or shape varies a good bit...for example...watch the overhead video...watch the right top hand position during power phase and at setup...that top hand will start fairy further away from your head/torso than the left does...I think when you watch that playback also again and key in on where you are applying power, your lower hand is off and on still pulling early...I think it may be worse on the left side with left hand as the lower pull hand, you begin pulling pretty early? 

You are rotating great I think!  I think a few tweaks to keep that solid form and a better catch, and you are going to kill it! ill watch it again later and do another video from mine later to reflect....id try to go slower, even if it looks and feels like crap, it will help....? 

Take care....ill post mine on here for comparison to yours

I think if you focus on starting the catch a bit more vertical...think of the top hand being closer to your head at setup for the catch, then start catch initiating with top hand, pulling with bottom, keeping bottom arm straight.

Good luck!! and have fun

Again, I’m just sharing thoughts as a fellow paddler, so others may correct me

Frankly with that camera angle I wouldn't compare sides too seriously, GoPros do distort perspective at this sort of angle.
I found a way to setup it right on top of me, should be more reliable. Also tweaked the erg, it runs a lot smoother now, maybe I can slow it down.

How much different is your erg technique from your real life paddling? It seems the erg adds (or takes away) from the true feel of locking the blade in the water and rotating your body correctly. I've never tried an erg, so I'm curious. 

Epicpaddler wrote: How much different is your erg technique from your real life paddling? It seems the erg adds (or takes away) from the true feel of locking the blade in the water and rotating your body correctly. I've never tried an erg, so I'm curious. 

Surprisingly similar. One thing missing is the feathering angle, it's hard to replicate on a wooden dowel with ropes, even if you angle the holes, but beyond that I am pleasantly surprised, especially considering it's made out of an old piece of exercise equipment and wood. 
You can certainly rotate in any way you see fit, the erg really does not dictate anything in particular, it's just resistance.

Hi Spacesputnik,
I found a quote on Nick Murry's website that has helped me a lot.  In the following quote he's talking about the top hand " 

Following the initial spear into the water and downward pressure on the blade into the water, it should also follow a circular arc remaining equidistant from your face the entire time.    Erik/Rob described this as thinking about drawing a smiley face with your top hand making the smile right at eye level."

I happened to read this about the time I was watching some of Wesley Echols videos and it is really easy to see in action.  It's also easy observe yourself while paddling. 

Couple of more videos.




I have to say that it's easier now to maintain the same speed (as per the ergs computer). What used to be more of an oomph now happens at a casual pace. Hope it means something other than learning how to spool the erg better.

looks pretty good really....you are getting I think good rotation...its very difficult watching the uploaded youtube video to track along on your shape during the power phase because its such a fleeting moment, then the arm straightens...I shoot often with my iPhone for this in slow mo mode and it works quite well (food for thought).

One thing id try is go back and shoot this video again...do everything else you are doing (I'm more convinced now you are doing much totally right as you go on, for whatever that is worth)....but think about before applying the power, have the top hand almost touching your face...or far closer to your body...maybe as a drill, touch your ear with your top hand fist for a moment, then come out and go for the catch...if that makes sense? I think as I watch the video, it *looks* like at times you come in wide with the top hand for the catch, and perhaps (and this is hard to visualize I think and I think it may be varying) you are spearing that catch, and as you pull, you break your power phase form down....My suspicion or curiosity is that I feel like everything looks almost right, but if you bring that top hand in closer before applying the catch just before the moment of the catch, and create a more vertical angle of the pole, then apply force and unload your rotation, the shape of your stroke may look a bit different....but even as it is...it looks mostly to me like you are applying your force of the power phase through the rotation and not from your arms (lower arm biceps)....I think some will continue to think they see you just punching forward and not rotating because the video transitions from the power phase to the exit phase so very rapidly, as well as because you start the stroke out a tad wide perhaps with the top hand and less verticle at times? 

Also, I do a drill from time to time and just purposefully paddle in what I hope is entirely perfect form but very very slow, like painfully slow (like for each stroke gets a slow "one-one-thousand, two one thousand, three...")....then slowly increase the tempo....to full speed....maybe the progression takes in total 2 min....ill post such a video later as food for thought....slowing it WAAAY down is not I suppose entirely realistic, but it seems to help remind me and check as a way to ensure I'm not breaking down form? 

Good luck...hate that this is "emotionally taxing" for you.....I get that...for me technique chats feel kinda like a mindF$% really, I much much prefer to send footage to my coach to review....and trust feedback from that one source....then I can keep working on it, but not have lack of confidence in my approach.....id leave these discussions feeling overwhelmed perhaps and perhaps too questioning of everything? At the same time, this is free and I think all the advice given seems, um to me, sound  

You're making good progress man.  The fact that you are maintaining the same speed with less noticeable effort is a really good thing.  It's indicative of better technique.  I find the same thing on the water.  I can do high temp efforts and then slow that tempo down making each stroke precise and deliberate.  Funny part is, the speeds are the same and one feels less taxing.  Your hands are definitely working together as one unit better.

Keep watching those videos and comparing to yours.  Also, just a thought but if you can pick up a cheap mirror to place in front of you, that makes a world of difference when it comes to real time feeback.

also, a tangent...I loved listening to Oscar through that technique clinic video you posted on your youtube channel. 

One thing he said that resonated with me....is how you ought to not be feeling as if you are applying leg drive and pushing back into the bucket, but rather feel like you are lifting yourself up and toward the foot board. 

I find that if I focus on a feeling or idea that my pelvis/hip is a focal point for me...that it is stretched forward prior to the catch, and that once get the catch, I feel like I should be lifting that hip/pelvis up and move it forward during the power phase, even though it goes a bit back relative to the opposing hip....I feel like once I became convinced that my shape of my upper body frame and catch was ok, then focusing on the hip/leg drive seemed more natural and easy? maybe for some people (and I'm just talking out loud here) we focus too much on the top hand movements and some people benefit more on focusing on what the hips/legs feel like during the various parts and the entirety of the stroke? Food for thought....I enjoy thinking about this as you can see haha. 

Put another way "I like to feel like its my hip grabbing out for that catch, then once I got it, the hip pulls the power phase"...if that makes sense? I have no idea if that's a good thought, but it kinda how I feel in my own movements at times...I rather suspect what "clicks" with people over time varies...I think its common when you read about technique that people find words, drills, process that help just varies a good deal?

Another thing that helped me with my form, was that I would spend some time paddling focusing on the idea that I would only apply rotation power through the top hand....not paddle hard or anything per se, but think like "ok, setup, apply force, rotation, but apply the force primarily from my top hand, and not pull from the bottom as a focus point"....in doing this I feel it helped me to encourage keeping that form during the power phase, because if you drive that stroke primarily thinking about the top hand as the conduit for the power from your rotation, you FEEL you must maintain that good form because if you do not, the power will dissipate....if your top hand is all screwy, say far away and pushed forward, you still CAN pull with the bottom hand to "save" the stroke...but if your focus is for this drill on making the top hand the almost exclusive conduit for the force that drives the stroke, it seems far more difficult to break form? 

I'm really dumping out my crap thoughts here man, hahaha....I hope it may help and not just make you nuts...I'm just sharing in the spirit of sharing...again, I run all my video by my own coach, although my thoughts about some of these things are my own verbalizations of my thinking over time.