need some advice stable but fast ski

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11 years 3 months ago #7655 by kipower
Hi All

I need some ski advice.
I have been paddling for 12 mths now i have made my transitition from lake to the open water and im loving it.

However im really unstable falling in bout twice a session.
My stroke is not fast as im using the paddle to correct my self from tipping over.

I currently have two skis on for sale on the site the Horizon from custom, however the bucket is too small for me i get hip pinch and for those who have experienced it, its not fun .
i aslo have a wave master 21 footer carbon ski its a nice ski just tippier than the custom, ( so i get frustrated )

im 6 foot and 107kg not all fat either .

Im looking for a ski inbetween, My goal is to keep ocean paddling and compete locally ie manley central coast and NSW.
i ve tried the Epic V8 ski on flat water and found it great.

Id like to be able to head out and not fear the tip over fall in thing all the time. so be on the ski and enyoy the paddle rather than the remount.

id just like to go .....

so should i perservere with the wave master (carbon series) or get a more stable ski where i know i can get out there do some miles have a great workout and stay in the boat.

I can paddle in Lake Maquarie now no issues at all i can do 17km in 2 and a bit hrs no fall offs just hard yeards and good enduro training.

i did a session at terrigal on the central coast 5.5km 1hr fell of twice but felt like i wasnt really moving forward.

should a muscle up and continue as is on the wave master or get an intrum ski so i can get moving while in the ocean and not fall off as much.

i liked the epic v8 however will i grow out of it way too quick.
some have said try the think .....

ill put it out there and get some ideas and thoughts remembering im on the central coast nsw oz so the products available are epic think fenn and im sure some other brands i think the ocra is available also.

ps the custom horizon will go as the hip pinch is just too much , and the only way to ride it is by taking anti inflam tabs each time i use it ....not a good long term soloution

regards
Andrew

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11 years 3 months ago #7656 by zachhandler
Andrew. Get the v8.

First of all it is comfortable for you. That is half the battle of finding the right ski.

Second, The v8 is actually not all that slow. As paddling speed decreases, there is less and less penalty for paddling a "slower" boat. If you an elite trying to hold 14 kph on a lake, there is a huge difference between an v12 and a v8. But at your pace, 8 kph or so, there is actually going to be very little difference in the amount of effort it takes to keep the ski moving that fast.

third, you actually will be faster on the ocean in a stable ski than one that tests your balance.

fourth, your stroke will improve faster in a stable ski because you focus on paddling not staying dry.

fifth, you will have way more fun on a stable ski, because you will catch so many more waves and stay on them longer.

sixth, the v8 will have great resale value if you ever do grow out of it.

I paddle with a friend who just got a v8. He is a very experienced paddler. He can paddle my v12 with out problem, and he paddles a boat much tippier than a v12 in flat water races. But he loves his new v8. He can catch and stay on waves that tippier boats broach on. I was recently paddling with him for a couple of hours in 3 foot wind chop, averaging about 11 kph. He kept up with me upwind, downwind, and surfing, and was working no harder than me on my v12. He was having a blast.

Hope that helps!

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy
The following user(s) said Thank You: dyno

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11 years 3 months ago #7657 by Edge540
Andrew,
Suggestion from Zachandler is right on the money.Get the Epic V8.
You can build the skills and comfort to paddle in any conditions and hammer every stroke 100%. Faster ski is not always better.
When you get ready for a faster ski, just keep the V8. It will comes handy. You can have a friends or kids paddling it with no
experience and also when conditions gets really bad or paddling in cold weather ,comfort and stability of the V8 comes handy.

I am paddling Fenn Mako Elite, but I would love to have V8 so I can take it out paddling alone in winter months when is blowing here in Pacific North West or I can just go for a relax paddle and same time my wife and kids could paddle it also when weather is nice.

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11 years 3 months ago #7658 by Draftbuster
Give the v10 sport a go.with no paddling at all I was able to paddle it on the flat.And out in the waves a few fall ins but still able to have a good go.As you get better you wont be that much slower then the high end boats but I think you will be in the v8.or try the Think Evo

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11 years 3 months ago #7659 by kipower
hi
i tried the v10sport after i had a paddle in the v8 and fell in a few times, i like the idea the other guys said re family members getting in and having a go aslo on flat days.

Im at terrigal now and for what i wantt to do i dont feel comfy in the wavemaster to do so .
So im leaning towards the V8 ill post later tonight after ive been out . i think the more i paddle my mind will be made up .

However keep the responses comming the more the better

regards

Andy

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11 years 3 months ago - 11 years 3 months ago #7663 by bussellt
TRY LOOKING AT THE NEW FENN SWORDFISH DONT GO THE EPIC V8 YOU MAY AS WELL BUY A SPEC SURF SKI FROM ONE OF SURF CLUBS OLD STOCK I HAVE JUST RECEIVED MY SWORDFISH FROM DEAN GARDINER GO AND TRY ONE GREAT SKI YOU WONT REGRET GETTING ONE HORIZON IS A BARGE AND V8 IS A BARGE THE FINISH IS GREAT AND ARE ONLY 13KG FOR LIFT ON TOP OF CAR IVE TRIED OTHERS SKIS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS THE SWORDFISH IS THE BEST BY FAR YOU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW GOOD IT IS TO OTHERS SKIS AND GOOD IN THE CHOP AND A QUICK SKI AS WELL

TREVOR
Last edit: 11 years 3 months ago by bussellt.

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11 years 2 months ago #7672 by Kocho
The V8 is way too stable - anyone with basic kayaking skills will paddle it anywhere they can paddle the average sea kayak. Unless you simply want to enjoy a relaxed day on the water, you will quickly outgrow it. It is so stable, I can stand-up in it on flat water.

The V10 Sport is less stable but more stable than the "elite" skis. After a dozen outings (only 2-3 of them in "conditions") I am beginning to question if I should have skipped the V10 Sport and gone to a V10, which I might do next year. And I do not paddle often enough - once or twice a week at best. But I have solid bracing skills - if you do not, a tippy ski like a V12 or even an intermediate like the V10 Sport will throw you in the water. So I would say, stick with a more stable one until you develop solid bracing.

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11 years 2 months ago #7674 by zachhandler
There is no such thing as too stable. The ideal boat would be 100% fast AND 100% stable. The only time stability is bad is when it comes at the cost of sacrificing too much speed. But I strongly feel that for a beginner or intermediate paddler venturing onto the ocean, there will be almost no sacrifice in speed by choosing the v8 over a less stable boat.

For example, here are Greg Garton's calculated 10 km race time for an intermediate paddle on flat water. Keep in mind that the v8 hull is the same as a epic 18x sport hull.

Intermediate Level Paddler:
Epic 16X: 53:50
Epic 18X: 53:10
Epic V10 Sport: 52:40
Epic V10: 52:00
Epic V12: 51:45
Epic Legacy ICF: 52:40 (slower in Legacy due to stability issues)

So just look at the numbers. if you are an intermediate paddler on flat water in ideal conditions you are only going to lose 1 minute from the v12 by stepping down to a v10 sport, and only 2 minutes by going all the way down to a 16 foot fast sea kayak. That is at race pace. At touring pace there is no difference between 16x and 18 x per Barton.
www.epickayaks.com/news/news/boat-speed-comparison

So then imagine what's going to happen on ocean waves. These time differences are going to be obliterated if not completely reversed for a paddler at you level. It is highly likely that you will be going much faster on ocean waves in a v8 than in any of the tippier boats. And, you will be safer, drier, catching more waves, looking around, and having more fun.

i appologize for sounding so opinionated on this matter, but I think that the urge to get into the tippiest boat possible is very common, but also very counterproductive, assuming our goal is to go fast in waves, improve as paddlers, and have fun. And as far as all the epic references, my argument applies to any line of boats; I just cite epic here because that's what I know the best.

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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11 years 2 months ago - 11 years 2 months ago #7676 by Kocho
Sure, a "beginner" will likely be faster in the V8 in some chop than they would be in a more slender ski.

Earlier this year I was evaluating surf skis. I was faster in the V8 than I was in the V12 in the near-flat small chop conditions I tried both back to back (GPS/heart rate confirmed). Six months later, I am faster in the V10 Sport than I am in the V8. And I am almost at 100% with the V10 Sport in waves and wind (almost no need to brace, putting most of my power to the water and missing only a few waves because I could not dig-in due to stability). On flat water I feel I would be faster in the V10 than I am in the V10 Sport - most of my stability issues I had early in the year have pretty much dissapeared in this very shor time frame.


I doubt the original poster is an "intermediate" paddler per Greg Barton's definition. Greg's "intermediate" paddler, according to the numbers above, is capable of maintaining a speed of 11.37km/h = 6.81mph over a distance of 10km (5.98 miles) in flat water (in the V10 Sport). That level of fitness requires significant dedication and if one had that, they would not be asking about the V8, I think. To someone who is a "mortal intermediate", not an intermediate at the international competitor's scene, I feel the difference is bigger b/w these boats.

What am I saying? Of course someone with poor stability will be faster in the V8. But only initially and for a very short time. Until they gain more experience. The V8 IMO is very stable and thus easy to outgrow in flat or small conditions if one is after speed and wants to put the effort into improving their balance. It may still be relevant in messy short period conditions even after that though.

Paddling side by side with a couple of guys in 17" skis and another in an Epic 18x (not sport), on the flats the gradation was clear - the two faster skis were relatively easily pulling away from me and I was slowly pulling away from the 18x. When we got into small chop, I was keeping-up easily with the V12 and we two were pulling away from the other "fast" ski while the 18X was keeping up with it. When we got to catch some boat wakes, all 3 skis had noticeably better luck than the 18X (and it was not the "Sport", which is a bit slower due to being an inch wider at the water). I suspect the V8 will be good at handling messy conditions but not nearly as good as the longer more slender craft at going downwind in nice fast swells.
Last edit: 11 years 2 months ago by Kocho.

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11 years 2 months ago #7678 by kipower
The question for me is not flat water stabilityas i have a wavemaster 21 footer carbon 48cm wide boat, i wentr out yesterday and i really struggle with the swell hitting me from the sides of the boat, down wind with the wave im ok straight into the wave again no issues however across the chop,,,,well im not chop either my stroke rate is down im always bracing and again not really moving forward if i did the bridge to manly in sydney this way it would take foreva , for me i want to move ahead and have nice forward stroke not braceing all the time to keep upright.
im trying the think evo 2 today i have 4 weeks before i get me new boat so ill test s many as i can ive narrowed it down to the fenn xt, epic v8 or the think evo 2 . see how we go

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11 years 2 months ago #7679 by rp91
Im in a similar situation... all i can say is have fun making a desision.
I started paddling 6 months ago in a Spirit Racing ski which I am looking to step up to something a bit better but can't decide what. The spirit has a trailing rudder so turning doesn't happen and the foor wells don't drain. Mind you I will never sell it cause it is indestructible and anyone can paddle it so I can take out family members on nice days.

From what i've heard there is 2 sides to the argument. One side says jump in the deep end and enjoy swimming but improve. The more common theory is to get something stable a master a good technique.

Dealers will want to sell you what they have, not what is best suited. Try as many different boats as possible before making a desicion. It sounds like you should be looking at a Fenn XT or Swordfish, Think Evo, Carbonology Vault, Custom Synergy or V10 sport (I think you will grow out of the V8 pretty quick but saying that it is not all that slow). What suits one paddler will not suit you so you need to make your own desicion. I'm 75kgs with a 32 inch waist so what I like won't fit you.

Keep in mind it is coming into summer so the odd swim here or there while your learning may not be so bad.

For the record I haven't made a decision on what to buy yet. Keen to here what you decide on buying.
Cheers

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11 years 2 months ago #7683 by Coffeephix
You may want to try the Stellar SR as well. Really stable & similar speed to the Evo.

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11 years 2 months ago - 11 years 2 months ago #7684 by Dicko
I would question the accuracy of the epic figures on the relative speed of their boats as well.

To say that a v8 is only 1'25" slower than a v12 when paddled by an intermediate paddler over a 10km course is just not accurate.
This would equate to 240 metres over that distance.
My best effort in an xt compared to a red7 pro, over an 8km course,showed a 5 minute difference. In the pro I averaged about 11.7 kmh
In sideshore the v8 would definitely be easier and faster compared to a high performance ski, but in a straight downwind paddle the HPS would probably be 10 mins faster.
To suggest that a v10 is 15 secs (8 boat lengths)slower in flat water just doesn't stack up in real life. Maybe if you've got a big ticker and arms like Schwarzeneger.
It would be interesting to compare Wesley's times on Surfskiracing to see if Epics' times are accurate.

Buy a more stable ski, just don't expect to be as fast as they tell you.
PS
Last edit: 11 years 2 months ago by Dicko.

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11 years 2 months ago #7685 by Edge540
I just want to add one more thing into the consideration often
overlooked regardless the surfski and that is a comfort level or
confidence level. It is not the same as stability. I am sure most of us at one point got to the situation when venturing to more challenging waters and got caught up in something never exposed before ,for an example big nasty 6ft chop bouncing from the harbor walls every direction like a wash machine.
It was not necessary feeling tippy, just not comfortable and not sure how to paddle in it and starting to shake and couldn't wait to get out of the mess.
Super stable boat will push that comfort zone much higher. Once get used to it, transition to faster boat will be easier.

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11 years 2 months ago #7687 by AR_convert

Dicko wrote: I would question the accuracy of the epic figures on the relative speed of their boats as well.
Buy a more stable ski, just don't expect to be as fast as they tell you.
PS


Thoroughly agree here, while I have seen some people "monster" a V10 sport along with faster ski's the majority of those I know in the mid pack including me are MUCH faster on the top end ski's in the flat.

I went from a Epic V10 Sport to an Epic V10L and saw huge gains, only to drop back down to a Carbonology Vault for some added stability in big downwind conditions... which ended up having me faster than the V10L due to that added stability. Each boat has different characteristics but for me, the .2-.3km/hr I reckon the V10L is faster on the flat than the Vault isn't translated when I race.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 2 months ago #7689 by egger
Buy a second hand stable boat, develop your technique and stability and then sell it in six months time to buy a faster/better ski. If you look after it you will get back what you paid for. In effect you have leased the ski for little or no cost, while you have developed your paddling and in the mean time had a chance to look around and try a whole bunch of different skis. You will be a much wiser and better paddler in six months time to make a decision.

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11 years 2 months ago #7690 by AR_convert

egger wrote: Buy a second hand stable boat, develop your technique and stability and then sell it in six months time to buy a faster/better ski. If you look after it you will get back what you paid for. In effect you have leased the ski for little or no cost, while you have developed your paddling and in the mean time had a chance to look around and try a whole bunch of different skis. You will be a much wiser and better paddler in six months time to make a decision.


Couldnt agree more ;) Although I didnt buy 2nd hand I haggled a good price on my V10 sport and V10L so that when it came to selling them the most I lost was $300 on each ski and had each one almost a year....which to my reckoning isnt a bad lease rate B)

Somewhere on surfski.info someone bemoaned the fact that most ski's are white, well I can tell you I'm not complaining :dry: that the missus never noticed the changeovers of my last 3 white ski's :whistle:

Always looking for the next boat :)

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11 years 2 months ago #7701 by thames

Dicko wrote: I would question the accuracy of the epic figures on the relative speed of their boats as well.

To say that a v8 is only 1'25" slower than a v12 when paddled by an intermediate paddler over a 10km course is just not accurate.
This would equate to 240 metres over that distance.
My best effort in an xt compared to a red7 pro, over an 8km course,showed a 5 minute difference. In the pro I averaged about 11.7 kmh
In sideshore the v8 would definitely be easier and faster compared to a high performance ski, but in a straight downwind paddle the HPS would probably be 10 mins faster.
To suggest that a v10 is 15 secs (8 boat lengths)slower in flat water just doesn't stack up in real life. Maybe if you've got a big ticker and arms like Schwarzeneger.
It would be interesting to compare Wesley's times on Surfskiracing to see if Epics' times are accurate.

Buy a more stable ski, just don't expect to be as fast as they tell you.
PS


I don't know how Greg came up with these figures, but I'd have to agree that in my experience their is no way the 16x would be that fast relative to the v12. I'm not sure what Greg's definition of an intermediate paddler is, but I've seen a few guys paddling the Epic sea kayaks in the flat water divisional races and their not even pushing the 10kph mark.

I know that Greg's a living legend but I actually don't believe he could paddle 10km in the 16x in 46 mins. I note that the article says it's the time he would expect to record, not actually the time he recorded. Averaging 13kph over 10km on the flat is an exceptionally good time even in a K1. To do it in a sea kayak which has very basic foot mounts and doesn't allow proper foot drive would be impossible. But I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong........

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11 years 2 months ago #7703 by Rightarmbad
The 18x is a surprisingly fast hull and the seating position is more ski like than kayak like if you so want it to be.
10kph flay water is entirely feasible, if not expected.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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11 years 2 months ago #7704 by Dicko
Quite correct RAB but the difference between 10kph and 12 kph over 55 minutes of paddling is sure a lot greater than 250 mmeters. There is no doubt these boats are great beginners boats, just don't expect them to be as fast in flat water as claimed.

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