Advice/opinion required please..

Hello fellow surf skiers, I have attached pics of my EpicV9, purchase new September 2020, a couple of days ago i was on a 3ft wave going across the face of it when it closed in on me, as I went to remount I noticed this damage, there are no reefs to hit and its deep water where I was paddling, this is the second my V9 has been damaged by a wave closing in on me and was told the repair would make it better than new, Epics warranty policy states "Surf damage to surf skis or wing paddles is not considered a manufacturing defect" advice and opions from you surf ski guru's would be appreciated..
cheers
Graeme.

That's a really tough one.

Many years ago I took my brand new full-carbon Fenn Mako6 up to Durban to take part in a race.  Durban has surf, Cape Town (where I live) mostly does not, so I was extremely anxious about the potential for damaging the boat.

The day before the race, I went for a paddle - specifically to practice ins and outs through the surf.  It was a perfect day for it because the surf was small.  I paddled a couple of km up the coast and then turned in towards the beach.  I came in perfectly behind the wave then stuck my legs out to avoid hitting the rapidly shelving sand.  The next (small) wave turned me sideways, but I wasn't worried....  The next (small - considerably smaller than 3ft) wave dumped on me, knocking me off the boat.

No worries, I stood up in the thigh-deep water and reached across for my hat and paddle and walked over to my boat to pick it up and have another go.

Then I did a double-take - the boat looked as someone had taken a chain saw to the hull in front of the cockpit.  Bizarrely the deck was barely creased - but the hull was severed.  All I could do was empty the water out, pick the boat up and trudge back the 3km up the beach to the club.

I went to the nearest hardware store where they gave me a bunch of hardboard off-cuts, which I duct-taped onto the hull to split it.  I sent the boat back to the Fenn factory where they repaired it and I got many more years of use from it.

The point though is that any ski can be broken by seemingly small surf and it's a risk we all take when playing in the waves.  No manufacturer offers a warranty against wave damage.

I popped the seam on my Swordfish S a couple of months ago, coming into the beach at the finish of a downwind race.  I had just been overtaken by one of my buddies and although I could see a big wave coming in behind me, I thought stuff it, I'm going - and ended up doing the first genuine pitch-pole of my life - the wave steepened to the point where the nose buried, the tail of the ski came right over and I was ejected.  Fortunately I'd already undone my leash.  This one was entirely my fault - in any other circumstances I'd have pulled out of the wave and come in more circumspectly.  The pressure exerted on the nose caused it to implode.  Fortunately the damage was confined to the popped seam so it wasn't a difficult repair job.

I'm really, really sorry for the damage to your boat, but, yep, I can understand why manufacturers balk at accepting responsibility for surf damage.

Where are you from, Graeme?

I'd talk to Epic or the Epic supplier. This wasn't surf damage but in the open water, right?

This is why I bought a rotomold plastic boat. Too many similar stories.

Even on moderate days, going into waves I will frequently get half the hull in the air and slam down. Not sure the lightweight composite boats will stand up to that for hours at a stretch. 

Hi

I have the heaviest, strongest construction that Fenn makes on my Bluefin. The thing weighs a ton. You would think that it would be impervious to damage. Mostly I have found that it can handle a lot more abuse than the lighter boats BUT I managed to pop a seam going out over a big wave. I popped over, did a free fall for what felt like many seconds and then landed with a thud.

I didn't even notice the split until I beached. So yes, although construction can play a part in certain situations, the boats are inherently not impervious to damage. I cannot comment on what happened in your particular situation as I was not there but the power of water can be deceiving. I managed to snap my paddle going through a half foot ankle lapper of a wave. Water is heavy and moving water has mass and momentum which can be deceiving. 

I hope your repair goes well.

Yikes! And that V9 was a black tip? This thread is a good warning for me to be more careful, my Zen has been hammered an embarrassing number of times in shore waves. 

Can you explain what you mean by "closing in on me"? 

I wouldn´t think a 3foot wave would crest-out on OPEN water in a way that it could crunch down on the boat like that. It can obviously take you down but overall just give your boat a  big slap. 

How deep is "it´s deep water"? Even 20-30 feet is considered breaking/surf zone.

From the pictures your boat got damaged on both sides?

mrcharly wrote: This is why I bought a rotomold plastic boat. Too many similar stories.

Even on moderate days, going into waves I will frequently get half the hull in the air and slam down. Not sure the lightweight composite boats will stand up to that for hours at a stretch. 

Is this correct? Are Rotomolded skis much stronger for surf conditions? 

If must of the use was in and out in small waves, are rotomolded construction recommended?

Thanks

STC67 I have a V7 Rotomolded as well as the V9, the V7 is virtually indestructible, the 2 problems with the V7 is it's heavy and slow, I should have done my home work better before I purchased the V9, I should have got a "spec ski", when repaired my V9 will never be paddled in any surf. I'm now looking for a spec ski now.. 

As consumers we shouldn't be content with unseaworthy boats. In 2013 my Horizon's seams separated I fixed it but wanted to upgrade to a Carbonology Vault. So I asked Hein van Rooyen about his boats seams and this was his reply,
" Hi Rod, 
Have a look at the photo and decide for yourself. I stuffed around there for 40min. 
My seams did not separate so your ski will be fine..."
The pics from Woody Cape
And Rob, if you went vertical in a 6m boat in the surf zone I expect it hit the sand which did the damage rather than just water pressure

And Rob, if you went vertical in a 6m boat in the surf zone I expect it hit the sand which did the damage rather than just water pressure

I really don't think so.

I was a long way out from the beach, well out of my depth.  Usually if the boat hits the sand, it snaps.  The damage to my boat was very different - the seam was simply popped, consistent with having given way under pressure.  There was no creasing to deck or hull, which would have been the case had the nose hit the sand.

And with the greatest respect to Hein, who indeed makes lovely boats, I don't think any of our light surfskis are built to survive big waves; I've seen every brand represented in pieces on the beach!  Another instance of a boat being smashed out at sea: Dave Black's Rescue

Thanks.

By "Spec" I'm assuming you mean a SLSC standard ski? Are these more tippier?

Cheers
STC

The SLSC (spec) ski I tried was more stable than the v10 sport I was paddling at the time, i am sure there are variations in these like other skis.. Typically they dont have adjustable leg lengths to minimize foot well volume to minimize swamping, often made to measure. This can make them harder to match second hand, and equally harder to sell. Shallower set wells (for same reason), may make then feel less snug..

Yes a spec ski is more tippier.  The "spec" ski i'm looking at is the Carbonology Surf X glass.

I am always surprised there is not more chatter about spec skis on this site.  They are great fun and the obvious choice for use in and around the surf, or beach breaks. This is what they are made for.   Just like ocean skis, old models will be fixed footwells, but many newer models will be adjustable.  Just like ocean skis, some models will be tippy and some stable.  My Fenn Tarpon S (deep seat version) is both adjustable and very stable.  Epic makes (or made, not sure) an adjustable footwell spec, though a little less stable as I recall.  They are all heavy (fiberglass) to meet specs, which are there in part to ensure relative durability in surf.  No boat, though, will be unbreakable in heavy surf where boat can hit bottom.  I suppose plastic is best if only looking for durability.  I love my Tarpon S when only looking to surf.

When I went back to sea kayaking, I was quite surprised how much stronger those are built. At some point I had a couple of performance layup skis sitting next to my kayaks in the garage (still have a friend's Evo sitting there). In comparison the skis always felt very lightly built. Even my 42 lb 18x feels much stronger and it's about as light as sea kayaks get.
My main boat is 55lb epoxy build. My friend's full carbon sub-50 lb kayak is also a lot stronger that any of the non-plastic skis I have seen. A plastic V7 is about the only ski I had that approaches the level of resilience, but it's almost as heavy and not much faster than your average touring kayak.

Good to see you back the on the board Space.

It's crazy how fragile (real or imaginary) surfski's are compared to sea kayaks. I have a full carbon fiber Necky Chatham that survived a drop off the roof of my 4Runner with nothing more than a chip on the bottom. My former black tip Epic v8pro seemed really strong. It never got dented or chipped the gelcoat despite some "friendly contact" during racing. My new red tip v10 came to me with a 5mm chip out of the gelcoat on the bucket and I noticed a hairline crack in the gelcoat about an inch long yesterday. I've only had it since November and its been babied. I'd be afraid to see what would happen if I took it in the surf zone. 

I'd be sick if that happened to a new ski. Hopefully, you can get it repaired to like new condition. 

SpaceSputnik wrote: When I went back to sea kayaking, I was quite surprised how much stronger those are built. At some point I had a couple of performance layup skis sitting next to my kayaks in the garage (still have a friend's Evo sitting there). In comparison the skis always felt very lightly built. Even my 42 lb 18x feels much stronger and it's about as light as sea kayaks get.
My main boat is 55lb epoxy build. My friend's full carbon sub-50 lb kayak is also a lot stronger that any of the non-plastic skis I have seen. A plastic V7 is about the only ski I had that approaches the level of resilience, but it's almost as heavy and not much faster than your average touring kayak.

Sterling Kayaks (Bellingham, WA) used to offer an ultralight build of one of their models. I think it was the Ice Kapp S, but I’m not sure. Might not be offered anymore in their line-up, which seems to be a common fate of boats designed for small/light adults.

Anyway, the owner of one told me it was about 32 lbs, if I remember correctly. She had to get it repaired twice. Once because someone helping to carry it dropped their end—a doofus move, probably not due to light build. Another time because another kayak hit it on the water, or vice versa. I don’t know details of the latter. Could have been a wave whop, but could just as easily have been poor boat control when on flat water. I’ve had to do emergency backpaddling  to get my own sturdy glass sea kayak out of hitting range when newbies were around. Only a few days ago, while about to get on my Nelo 520 S at the boat ramp, I had to hop between it and some idiot in a canoe who could not steer at all. No waves or wakes or wind involved.

There is no way I would take it into some of the same waves where I paddled the sea kayak without harm. But we are talking about a different layup, and half the weight. And the kayak was meant to carry a fair amount of cargo in a big range of conditions. Different horses etcetc.

Thanks Epicpaddler, I do check in here and there
Yeah, quite a difference in mindsets. Sea kayakers seem happy enough to paddle their 60 lb boats, the weight rarely enters a conversation. My 55 pounder with all the extra water/lunch/coffee thermos is in reality a 70 pounder
I used to dismount my ski in ankle-deep water and gently carry it to the car.

Epicpaddler wrote: Good to see you back the on the board Space.

It's crazy how fragile (real or imaginary) surfski's are compared to sea kayaks. I have a full carbon fiber Necky Chatham that survived a drop off the roof of my 4Runner with nothing more than a chip on the bottom. My former black tip Epic v8pro seemed really strong. It never got dented or chipped the gelcoat despite some "friendly contact" during racing. My new red tip v10 came to me with a 5mm chip out of the gelcoat on the bucket and I noticed a hairline crack in the gelcoat about an inch long yesterday. I've only had it since November and its been babied. I'd be afraid to see what would happen if I took it in the surf zone. 

I'd be sick if that happened to a new ski. Hopefully, you can get it repaired to like new condition. 

Arcturus wrote:

SpaceSputnik wrote: .... is no way I would take it into some of the same waves where I paddled the sea kayak without harm. But we are talking about a different layup, and half the weight. And the kayak was meant to carry a fair amount of cargo in a big range of conditions. Different horses etcetc.

Oh absolutely. These are completely different sports and cultures, no doubt about that. Nothing wrong with either one..