Epic v10g3 upgrade?

Hey surfski community,

I've mentioned on this forum several times that I've been considering upgrading from my Epic V8pro to a V10 or V12.
I demoed a V10g2 and V12g2 this summer. I loved both boats. My thought was to be more aggressive in the upgrade and go with a v12 for flatwater racing and keep the v8pro for rough water. I might have the opportunity to swap out my performance layup v8pro for an ultra layup V10g3. I've never paddled a V10g3, but I'm assuming the bucket fit would be similar to the V10g2. 

My question is would I be OK with the Epic V10 as a do everything ski? I paddle on a large bay with 2-3' foot chop to 4' wind driven waves. I'm sure the V10 would be a big adjustment, but would I be OK using it in the winter without swimming all the time? I paddle about 10 miles a day and like to paddle as long as the bay isn't frozen over.

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated.

V10g3 bucket is like v12g2 bucket but slightly wider. it is much narrower than the v10g2 bucket. 

I don't think anybody can answer your question about if you can handle the v10g3 as an open water ski without having seen you paddle or knowing more about how you do in various boats in various conditions. 

That said V8P to v10 g3 is a leap. Are you super confident in  the v8P in waves, no balance issues, no hesitation, never losing power from your stroke because of a tricky wave? If so then I would try the v8 in those conditions with 2 seat pads and if that seems easy then you might be ready for the v10 as an open water boat. 

Regarding v10 vs v12 on flat water that is easy. Unless you are nearly elite level in terms of speed, there is no meaningful difference in speed. Extrapolating from greg bartons famous chart, the v12 is 30 seconds an hour faster at Barton's pace (8.3 mph) but at intermediate pace (7.15 mph) only 7 seconds an hour faster. Think about your actual flatwater speed and decide if there is any point to a v12. 

So don't get the v12. It most likely it will not be faster on flat water, and if there is ever any balance issues from a little wind chop, boat wakes, etc it will be a lot slower. In addition, elite skis are very hard to resell, especially if you live in a place like north America where surfski is not popular. 

I think the ideal strategy would be to buy the v10 (assuming you really want a faster flatwater boat) then decide if the one boat strategy is viable before selling the v8. 

As zachhandler says, nobody can give you an answer without seeing you paddle etc. At some point you need to take the plunge.

I find the v10g3 a very good natured intermediate/advanced boat. What I mean by that is the hull is pretty round, which means that it tracks very well in waves and chop and doesn't play tricks on you, but it does make it have less primary stability than other intermediate boats that have a flat spot behind the bucket. Another thing is that the sides are relatively low which definitely helps the remount at the expense of swamping more easily (that's one of its faults, IMHO).

I've been "coaching" a friend of mine, he's done around 70-80 outings since starting to paddle (all open ocean) and the V10 is the boat he prefers unless we have 5+ foot waves or confused seas, at which point he switches back to a nelo 510. I'd say if you're up for a bit of a challenge and can get a boat soon and put 12-20 outings in before it gets too cold to comfortably fall in then a v10 is a good choice. I would not recommend a V12 to anyone that isn't already chomping at the bit having mastered an intermediate/advanced ski, and that can keep another ski for the big days.

A good way to think about it may be, in rough conditions in your V8 Pro,

1. How often do you have to hard brace to prevent a swim ? If you were in a v12 you'd be swimming. a v10 would be 50/50 swimming or hard brace and slow down

2. How often are you DEEP into secondary stability, near tipping over but not. If you were in a v12 you're already swimming a while ago. In a v10 its 33/33/33 swim / hard brace  and slow down / stroke brace and lose no speed, depending on how well you adapt

Basically, your ideal boat is the fastest boat in which you can stay upright with only stroke braces which provide 80%+ forward energy and only rarely hard brace.

Based on where you are now in your proficiency with the V8P, I'd agree with the others and say the v12 should be ruled out. But the v10 is a realistic goal if you want it to be, particularly if you can keep 2 boats permanently, or until you get used to the v10

Last thought, the V8P has a relatively straight keel. The V10g3 is good and rockered and is probably a much better boat in the waves and downwind. They will probably feel a lot different in general, other than the stability.

Something else to think about is that from my experience stability on more advanced boats is more and more dynamic. Meaning it's you and your paddle strokes. Forget the boat. The less stable the boat the more you need to sit upright and rely less on any contact with the boat especially in your back, and then use your paddle strokes to keep your body upright. The boat can do what it wants, you just stay upright anyway 'cause you're not relying on the boat to stay up. No slumping allowed (unless you're zooming down a wave where the boat is stable). Most people don't have the core muscle power to sit upright like that for an hour+, so it takes time to build it. Are you up for that?

Awesome! All good advice. Thanks. 

1. How often do you have to hard brace to prevent a swim ? If you were in a v12 you'd be swimming. a v10 would be 50/50 swimming or hard brace and slow down- After paddling just about every day since March when Covid kicked in I feel like a rarely hard brace, and only tap brace in really rough multi-directional waves. Haven't had an unintentional swim this season. I only paddle in the ocean a couple times a year, so the Chesapeake Bay where I paddle is about as rough as I experience day to day.

2. How often are you DEEP into secondary stability, near tipping over but not. If you were in a v12 you're already swimming a while ago. In a v10 its 33/33/33 swim / hard brace  and slow down / stroke brace and lose no speed, depending on how well you adapt--Not very often, but the v8pro is floating dock stable. I'm 100% sure I'd be swimming in the v12 on most days I've paddled lately with 3'-4' waves. I could definitely feel a difference in my core after paddling the v12 for an hour. Not a boat I could relax in.

Also, maybe it was just me, but the v12 kind of pinched my hips a bit if I really drove my legs and rotated my hips properly. If the v10g3 bucket is like that it could be an issue. It's hard not having boats to demo, especially in the conditions I paddle. So based on this I think I'll steer clear of the v12 for a while. As for flat water speed I can keep the v8pro moving around 7mph, so not significantly slower than the v10. Thanks for all the advice.

The v10g3 bucket is a bit wider and the sides are not as steep. I have some thin side pads in the v10 but not the v12. Might be worth calling your dealer for this type of measurement.

One more question.
Is this a fair trade? My 3 season old black tip v8pro plus $1500 for a basically new red tip v10g3? Have to make a 6 hour drive (one way) to make this deal happen. Need to respond ASAP.

Looking at surfskinews.com classifieds, there is black tip 2 yr old v8 pro in MD for $2800 (yours?).  And a red tip, brand new still in bag V10 g3 for $3450 in IA (long ways away).  That is $650 difference.  I would say current model used black tip epics, in general, should be closer to $2000, but v8pro is highest in demand ski I see around here and best at holding its value.  If the red tip is used, not in shipping bag, I would say closer to $3000.  If it is literally brand new, $1500 payup might be fair (absolute max), else I would say $1000 payup.  That said, trading skis in USA, other than a few active spots, is very difficult.  Are you swapping skis with same person?  If you do it all at once without any trouble other than driving, and it is the boat you really want, just do it. 

If the red tip is very new i think it is a fair deal. Price difference of black vs red new is $1000. I think 3 years of use on a ski drops the value about $1000. A year or less of use drops it $500. So that is a $1500 difference. 

Thank you to all you enablers!

I made the trade.We don't actually get to swap boats until the end of October. I'm excited, the other guy is excited so all is well. I'm kind of nervous buying a boat I never even sat in, so I hope my 6'1 195# frame can fit in it. Not getting a chance to paddle until cold water season kicks in makes it more interesting, but I paddle year round with a wetsuit. I'm just not used to swimming in the winter. So with any luck by this time next year I'll have it dialed in.

Thanks again to this wonderful community.

Congrats on the V10G3!  I'm 6-2, 200lbs wider hips and fit my V10G3 great.  Super comfortable boat, nice boat for bigger guys IMHO.    I was very tight in Gen 1 V12 - needed pad to raise my hips.  Gen V10G2 fit fine.  V10SG2 snug at hips.   

Chris

Epicpaddler congratulations. I think the v10g3 is a really good boat. For almost all of us it is as fast as a v12 on the flat, faster downwind, and way more stable. In contrast to the v8P it has ample downwind rocker. Personally when I changed to a rockered boat it massively improved my downwind paddling. As far as size I found the v12g2 a little tight on my sit bones but the v10g3 felt perfect. On the flat a looser bucket is nice, but in the bump a slightly snugger fit improves stability and control. I think you will be happy with your new ski. Just be extra careful as cold water season approaches. 

Alright boys and girls.

Finally picked up my new to me Epic v10g3 ultra. Took it for a spin today on relatively flat water- wind about 5-10mph and a few inches of chop. Luckily, I did not come close to falling out. The ultra layup compared to the performance layup of my prior v8pro is very nice. Obviously more fragile, but so nice to carry on land. I do miss the carry handles of the pro. I was averaging around 6mph with about 50% effort. I sprinted up to a little over 8, and found maintaining 7mph not nearly as strenuous as pushing the pro at that speed. Bucket is comfortable, slightly more narrow and deep, but a more upright seating position. I had no trouble with rotation or leg drive which I was concerned about due to the tighter bucket. I can't wait to get some more time in the bucket in mixed conditions. I think if I can get it dialed in by next spring I'll be more competitive  if racing ever resumes.

The only concern I have with my "new" boat is a small chip in the gelcoat in the bucket. I want to repair it right so I'll probably get a gelcoat repair kit and take my time. I've repaired dings, scratches, and chips in gelcoat on my sailboat, but never on a delicate almost new boat like the Epic.

Any advice from the group?

Thanks

First of all it is NOT white! You will have to get some black as well to get anywhere close to the correct colour.
Epic gelcoat is very hard so it is harder to sand through but always take your time and use a block as opposed to your fingers.