Surfskis vs Kayaks ....

Dear Folks,

I'm trying to obtain opinions of kayaks vs surfskis on small inland lakes. My goal is to primarily fitness paddle for 1.5 hours at a time. There are really no downwind waves to ride on these types of lakes although sometimes the water does get pretty choppy. I want to "feel" the sensation of speed as my skills/paddling ability develop. Surfski max length would be about 17'. Can you describe the pros/cons, differences of kayak vs. surfski in the above described conditions?
Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Dave

If you want a fast boat you need something light and fairly narrow so sea kayaks are not really an option. Between surfskis and racing type kayaks, I would say that surfskis are safer and less intimidating, because you simply climb back on when you tip over. If you are in cool or cold water this is a huge advantage. It is not fun to swim the boat to shore, and it takes a lot of time. Fear of tipping becomes ingrained, and this really limits ones ability to progress technique-wise. So for most beginners, a surfski is a much better learning boat. Plus, as your skills develop, it becomes a boat you can take in big waves. Even on inland lakes surfing motor boat wakes is fun.

The advantages to a kayak is that there are more options in the 17 foot range, and if you are in a part of the world where sprint and marathon kayak is popular, there is potentially a larger selection of cheap used boats to be had. kayaks also tend to be lighter as they are shorter and less robust in construction.

For the majority of people, even on protected waters, a ski is a much more user friendly way to learn to paddle fast boats, and it is a much much more versatile craft that can handle the nastiest of conditions if need be. If you are in warm waters, and don't plan on paddling more than a few hundred yards from shore, and only on calm days, then a kayak is perfectly fine option and possibly cheaper and lighter. Kayaks are also slightly easier to carry as you can shove an arm inside.

My 2 cents.

Are you the same "acroreef" who posted about the Coaster near Michigan on pNet in '08? If so, then you got about 8 seasons paddling... you should know by now what kayaks can do for you. Just try a ski to see the difference. If you are that person, you are relatively small in size and weight, so you will fit most lower volume skis. Think Eze, Think Fit, Nelo Viper Ski come to mind in the 17' fange, with the Epic V6 at 16' and a few more at the 18' range.

I think the previous poster was talking about racing style not sea kayak, mainly. Sea kayaks with proper flotation are probably safer than a ski that could sink if damaged. Skis are safer from a perspective of being easier to remount. And slim touring kayaks like the 17' TideRace Pace are quick and fairly ergonomic to paddle.

In the really cold months I honestly prefer to paddle a sit in kayak, which I can reliably roll, so no issues with getting back in it as I won't be betting out of it .

That said, for most of the year (as long as it is a few degrees above freezing) and especially in warmer weather I prefer to paddle a ski for fitness over a fast touring kayak of similar weight and dimensions.

When we tell people that surfski are safer than kayaks, most people don't really understand why this is. I'll emphasize a few things here:
Let's say you are paddling a boat and fall in the water (it can happen at any time, for any reason - sometimes beyond your control).

Near shore (KAYAK)
If you are within 30 feet of the shore, no big deal. You get wet, swim, empty the boat, remount, continue.

Near shore (SURFSKI)
You get wet, you remount, you continue.

Eventually, all people on kayaks and surfskis start to venture a little further out in the "open" (away from shore). It's human nature.

1/2 mile from shore (KAYAK)
If you tip over, your choices are limited. (a) eskimo roll your kayak and continue to paddle. (b) Swim back to shore towing your kayak full of water and freeze to death, empty the water, remount, continue paddling.. © know how to empty your boat in deeper water, remount, keep emptying your boat, freeze a little more, continue to paddle.

1/2 mile from shore (SURFSKI)
You get wet, you remount, you continue.

So try paddling each one… and then try flipping each one (near safety) and then ask yourself which one you actually preferred. If your eskimo roll is solid, you now have more options, and if not, stick with surfskis. Either way, you should really give surfskis a go - try one for your paddling level (they always seem fast)

If K1 style kayak. You can't reenter so unless you plan to stay close to shore or train with a squad supported by a motor boat they are too limiting and a ski is better.
I think ICF do the whole K1 sport a disservice by banning ski deck in the category, its not like ski deck would have a competitive advantage, just improves the remount issue which keeps people away.

If Touring/Sea kayak. They are mostly pretty wide so you can remount in calm conditions. If you put in the hours to roll very well then you can reenter in anything, but its a pretty high level of skill and experience to reach that stage.
Issue with leg drive being restricted in this style too.
Category's advantage is you can go on overnighters and carry food for a full day on the water.

I have ski, K1 and sea kayak.
If its for fitness training its an easy choice to go with a ski.
It allows you to jump in and go 100% effort straight away, not needing to learn rolling rather than fitness.

Finding a 17 foot ski which isn't a barge may be hard though.
This is where it would be great if TK1 and K1 existed in ski deck form.
There are some, but depends on your part of the world and if you want secondhand or premium for new.

tourfr wrote: 1/2 mile from shore (SURFSKI)
You get wet, you remount, you continue.

I wouldn't say its so simple.
There have been plenty of incidents where ski paddlers can't remount, and I have seen ski remount practice sessions where paddlers who aren't new to the sport rather worryingly fail to remount in a calm harbor in chest deep water.
If its bumpy then remount is a real skill, not something to be taken for granted as automatic.

If you don't have a perfect reentry and roll then ski is the easier one. But its far from a guaranteed thing and dangerous for people to think it is.

You don't think it goes without saying?
"that people should practice their remounts" - on a surfski or in a kayak.

I thought my last sentence clearly stated to try to flip each one.

tourfr wrote: You don't think it goes without saying?
"that people should practice their remounts" -

It should be repeated again and again. "Practice remounts" again and again. In every craft you go out in. In every wind and wave condition you are likely to meet. Do it when you are tired and cold. And do it regularly. Self-rescue is absolutely essential.

No problem in repeating the essential, mate.

This came up recently when I and some others realised it was so long since we had actually fallen out, that we had lost the skills of a snappy remount. Sad but true (hangs head...)

So to make it "repeated again and again", we should all be practising them time to time - even those of us who don't fall out anymore (or especially?).

I messed up yesterday… but I succeeded!
A bit exhausted, high winds, a crazy tide and PLOUF (off I went).
I was thinking… "here's a chance to practice my long forgotten remount".

Hey… I am here, ain't I?
(actually, painless - I think it took me but 15 seconds to be back in the cockpit - must have been because of the winter waters of Brittany though)

I agree that one should practice remounting what ever craft they are paddling. Dress for immersion, not air temperature. Practice, practice practice.

I paddle seakayaks, whitewater kayaks, waveskis and surfskis. The remount is a critical survival skill. I've seen people who were unable to remount sit-on-top kayaks due to poor technique and lack of practice. I love the simplicity of skis, but does take regular practice.

I can roll kayaks and waveskis. In a closed deck boat I also carry a paddle float, and hand pump as other tools in the kit. If I blow my roll, I can do a re-enter and roll, paddle float roll or the paddle float rescue. Pump out the cockpit and I'm good to go.





Cheers!

I'm a retailer of sea kayaks, and a paddler of skis & all kinds of sea kayaks.

Certainly in our part of the world, innovations in boat design have drawn the traditional athletic world of surf ski closer to the traditionally recreational world of sea kayaking. The lines are starting to blur.

The fast touring boats around now, started with the Epic 18X & carried on with other designs since, are nearly as rewarding to paddle downwind as a ski, especially when the conditions aren't pure clean downwind.

In Sydney when the summer Nor Easter blows, our favourite run from the harbour to Botany Bay is a lot more fun & nearly as fast in a fast tourer than it is in a ski, because of the confused nature of the water over that stretch. Here's a video of a typical Sydney Nor Easter run in two of the boats in this new genre of fast tourer, with the kinds of mixed sea state that our cliffs throw back (disclosing the fact that we sell them both, sorry if it looks like an ad).



We've used them to do trips where there were crossings ranging from 60km-115km, with loaded boats, and maintained speeds that traditional sea kayaks can't sustain.

Open water sea kayaking comes with a more comprehensive skill set though, a roll is essential, as is the ability to land through surf where you AND your boat cop the flogging when you get it wrong (on a ski you just fall off).

Rolling is no black art. The pure fitness of the demographic I see paddling skis around Sydney would make those people very easy students to teach to roll very quickly. Once you can roll, you really do open up a whole bigger world of distances & the ability to journey in your boat.

The expedition we did to the North Reef Lighthouse a couple of years ago had days where we went 8-9 hours in the greatest downwind conditions you could imagine, all the while over 100km out to sea. Our one day trip from Sydney to Jervis Bay included a 75km stretch of paddling where the following winds rose from 15-30 knots. Ski paddlers would not have this picture in mind when they think of sea kayaking, old blokes with beards & footy shorts.

You can't do this in a ski, unless you have a support boat, but nowadays you can do it using all of the fitness and skills you acquire as a ski paddler, in boats that don't feel like bathtubs.

Mark.

All true mark about sea kayaks and rolling. However in regards to the original posters question (one hour fitness paddle on small inland lakes) I think the sea kayak is still the wrong boat for him. For his uses a surfski would be safer and less intimidating than a traditional 17 ft racing kayak, the kayak would be easier to carry and most likely lighter. Both would do the job. I own all 3 boat types. I never paddle the sea kayak anymore and almost never touch the racing kayak, even if I'm going for 45 minutes on a little pond. It's just so nice and easy to get in and out of the surfski. The racing kayak sure is nice to carry to and from the car though.

I agree, with regards to the original post. It had just morphed into a discussion about the relative merits of one vs the other, and some of the old myths were being perpetuated.
One last one, if a remount is your defence against a capsize in a kayak, you'll find yourself in bigger trouble than you can imagine, sooner than you think.
Rolling isn't an advanced skill for the kinds of people who paddle skis the world over.

I prefer the surfski tho length may be an issue. My reasons:

1. Fewer things to carry; pdf, paddle, whistle, and ski. If you want to train every day do you really want to be lugging more stuff then you need? It is about getting a workout not wearing yourself out.
2. You know the water temp instantly since you pretty much sit in it. I've read plenty of stories of kayakers heading out and not coming back. Main cause is they were oblivious to the water temp and died from exposure. On a ski you can immediately say, "That chit is cold!" and grab the right garments BEFORE it is too late.
3. If you tip your head won't almost ever go under. Hitting a rock, log etc. is always a risk. Even if you are a great roller what you don't see can knock you out you in a roll.
4. For emergency situations such as a lost paddle or dump. Most skis sit lower to the water which in an emergency you can push the stern down and lay prone on the back of a ski and paddle it like a surfboard.

There is always a risk in either boat. You as a paddler need to decide if conditions on the water are not safe. Whichever you do, enjoy!

tourfr wrote: (actually, painless - I think it took me but 15 seconds to be back in the cockpit - must have been because of the winter waters of Brittany though)

Because your skill level is up to it.
But its not a given for a beginner, or someone on too advanced a boat, or someone who is exhausted or sea sick.

Someone who cant get their torso up over the cockpit or straddle a kayak which has more stability than a V8 (which is most of them) isnt going to fare any better on a ski of similar width and certainly not thinner. And they will fall back off the ski again easier.
Plus if they are in a group there is far more support which can be given to a sea/touring kayak due to the deck lines which can be held to keep them upright and attach tow lines.

God the disasters and rescue operations I can picture if groups Ive been out in had been on skis not deckline covered towline equipped spare paddle carrying kayaks.

Each have their pros and cons.
Each will get you in trouble if you dont have enough skill for the boat and conditions.

The point is, saying someone will just jump back on a ski is the same as saying someone will just jump back into or roll a kayak.
Its just not the case.

Dave,

You asked about paddling in a lake, that gets a little rough from time to time. You wanted to paddle for about 1.5 hours at a time.

I assume you will paddle by yourself - I can already see people scared to death about that idea, but there are many people like me who paddle alone 95% of the time for training, for a better health.

Without a doubt, and especially if you paddle by yourself, I will recommend a surfski, and a beginner surfski at that. This will be the equivalent of one of the two following boats:
The Nelo 55 surfski:
www.nelo.no/kayaks/details/viper_55_ski

The Epic V8 surfski:
www.epickayaks.com/product/product/epic-v8

The simple truth is statistics:
Surfskis, by design, are just safer (there are far less accidents - look it up).
This is probably due to the fact that people MUST take 15 minutes to learn to remount their skis before they head on out.

I have seen so many people buy a kayak (sit inside), paddle, eventually fall out, eventually surprised, eventually unable to remount or roll their kayak because they didn't have to learn to remount.

For all others who know how to roll a kayak, good for you - but before you insult me, please go ask the next 100 kayak paddlers if they know how to roll their kayak. Prepare to be chocked (because I have).

Now do the same thing… with surfski paddlers.
Go ask 100 surfski paddler if they know how to remount their surfski.

Now that we have somewhat established that surfskis are safer, and since surfskis are still the fastest human power craft in the ocean the world over, it's fair to say that you will obtain the most rewarding workout with a surfski (you'll feel like more miles are covered with the exact same amount of efforts - also know as efficiency).

Who knows… after paddling for a few months, you might get really good at it. You may even find a place to store longer surfskis (when there's a will, there a way), and you may therefore pick up a more advanced and skinny surfski…

I know the vast majority of kayakers can't roll in a real situation.
I also think about the same percentage of them couldn't paddle or remount a V10S in 15kn winds on open water, not without practice to improve skill level which applies in both cases.

But that's where you have to filter the paddlers vs the craft.

Anyway I don't disagree that ski is the better fitness choice and let's you get on with the business paddling hard and fast with less distraction of learning rolling and stuff, better leg drive too and opens up competitive racing and training squads which will keep you motivated.

One possibility to also consider from experience:
I have seen a lot of people wanting to get into surfskis, mainly for a little bit of fitness and seeking a little better lifestyle at first, and then progressing into the following scenario:
(1) surfski (intermediate level)
(2) Flat water K1 (to even further improve paddling technique)
(3) Longer distance on surfski
(4) Paddling a more "advanced" surfski
(5) Taking a "liking" to surfskis, so much so that they end up racing (as a goal to more fitness)

I am not saying that everyone should follow the above (not at all actually) but considering the number of serious people getting into surfskis and following the above, I couldn't help but share it.

On the other hand… a kayaker on an ocean kayak has more chances of remaining just that: paddling in the ocean for fun, not necessarily seeking:
- better technique
- racing

Having said all of this, let's not keep track of the "bigger picture" here:
The best paddler will be the one having the most amount of fun - so seek what is best for YOU.

I also paddle in protected waters and thought that a surfski would be an excellent choice for that environment. It's been three years since I got my first surfski a Fenn XT. It was very stable, but I found no joy in paddling it. For my weight sub 90 Kg with gear, the trim of the boat was all wrong. So it felt like paddling uphill and there was no way I could surf small waves other then almost kissing my feet. Another matter was all the weed that I constantly ran into, which slowed the boat even further. So after a year I decided I would go for a more pro boat and I chose a Epic V12 performance. The trim in that boat was better, but I made a mistake of putting the shield away instead of mounting it on the boat. That mistake made the boat nose very lose and it was also very hard to paddle over small waves. The cover is actually part of the trim, at least it you are a sub 90 Kg. As for the paddling experience, it felt wrong(uphill) and to hard, so I had to stop all the time. I did put a weedless rudder combined with a kelp guard on, but I was not impressed with the result. I have tried a lot of things to make it work, but in the end I just couldn't make it feel right. The club where I paddle have a Nelo viper 55(not the surfski version) and in that boat you can adjust the hell out of everything. So I tried to see if it would be a better fit. At first no, I could not make it work in that boat either. But I found the mistake that I have constantly made and that was to put the seat in the middle/backish of the boat. So after adjusting the seat forward,it worked. There are about 16 positions spaced at 7,5mm, were 1 is the position most forward. I had to put the seat in position 3 and that was a totally a surprise, since I thought a guy weighing just under 90 Kg would need to sit further back. I have tried position 2 and 4, but position 3 is the right one, the stroke I am getting is incredible and is like silk on flat water. For me it has been a insane journey, but for the first time since I started paddling I am looking forward to the coming season.