Does rudder size affect stability?

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19049 by Shackleton
I am thinking of getting a new Epic V10 and was wondering if a universal rudder would be more stable in rough water than the weed less rudder.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19050 by Kayaker Greg
You will get answers both ways but I will say yes from my experience with rudders.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19051 by Kocho
I have the new V10 with the small weedless and the large surf rudder. The surf rudder is better for surfing boat wakes, the small weedless is fine for easy downwind and probably more efficient for flat water. The surf rudder has a lot of bite and will tilt the ski hard when you engage it. So in a way it will destabilize you at first. Once you get used to it, I guess it will make the ski more stable. The main thing though is that it will give better control in strong wind and steep waves that you are trying to surf and change direction (or keep direction when the wave wants to broach you).

I never tried the medium size universal rudder. I would expect it to be somewhere between the small weedless and the big elliptical surf rudder.
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9 years 2 weeks ago #19052 by Shackleton
All my paddling is one windy lakes with 1-3 foot waves and boat wakes. The one I demoed had a weedless and did fine on flat but I was wondering if the larger rudder would be better in waves.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19053 by Shackleton
Kocho: didn't you used to have an old v10 sport? Do you find that the new v10 similar in stability? I had a v10s and could handle it pretty well in most conditions and when I demoed the demoed the new v10 found it similar in stability.
Had you tried your v10 in rough water?

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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #19054 by Kocho
Yes, I did have the V10 Sport until I replaced it with the V10. I think they are close in terms of stability but the V10 is a bit of a step up, at least for me. Not a big one though. A bit hard to compare, because the new V10 is 6-7lb heavier than my Sport (even though both are Performance), and I hear heavier boats feel a bit less twitchy. After about 20 hours in it I feel I am about as stable in it as I was in the V10 Sport as I think the slightly less stable V10 makes me work more precisely and therefore improve faster than the Sport was pushing me to do.

I try to take the V10 in bumpy waters every chance I get, but I live near a river and away from the Ocean, so I have only taken it to wind waves so far. Downwind I have no problems, though I would not say I've mastered it enough to apply full power all the time. Far from it, but I never feel like I am going to fall off it on a down wind. I'm also beginning to feel comfortable (meaning I don't have to brace much and just paddle) in cross winds too, to about the same point I was with the V10 Sport a few months ago.

So, yes, they are close but I found the V10 Sport a bit more relaxing. I had to focus less in it when I fiddle with something behind me under the bungees. And I expend more energy in the V10 in choppy water - even when I don't feel too unstable, I get tired faster due to the extra workout my core and arms are getting.

That said, I am fairly tall at 6'4" and a shorter person might find both boats more stable than I do.

EDIT: I should also say that I find the V10 too long for the wind generated short period waves I most often encounter in the few miles long stretches of inland water that I most often paddle. Sort of an overkill for these conditions. Great on boat wakes and the occasional bigger sets of waves though. And certainly faster on the flats too.
Last edit: 9 years 2 weeks ago by Kocho.
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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #19055 by Kocho

Shackleton wrote: All my paddling is one windy lakes with 1-3 foot waves and boat wakes. The one I demoed had a weedless and did fine on flat but I was wondering if the larger rudder would be better in waves.


For the 1-3 foot wind waves and similarly sized boat wakes, it think the larger surf rudder is more responsive, I prefer using it over the small weedless. I felt the same with the older V10 Sport too - the elliptical rudder stayed on almost all the time and I would put the small rudder on only for the occasional flat water race that I do a couple of times a year. I hear if one is faster on the ski than I am, the smaller rudders become more effective, but I'm not there yet and like the bite of the bigger one better.
Last edit: 9 years 2 weeks ago by Kocho.
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9 years 2 weeks ago #19056 by Newbflat
I have a new V10 and after a month im settling in. But to your question….. yes, a larger rudder is more stable. Or at least less twitchy and resists moving around as much in quartering chop coming from astern. I have the epic surf/ elliptical but don’t use it. There is waaaay too much crap in the water here and that thing is a weed/leaf magnet. I use two weedless rudders made for me by a local paddler with a very small weed guard. One is a 4 inch and the other an 8 inch “weedless surf” rudder. My V10 ultra is still a touch twitchy for me with the 4 inch on and definitely less so with the 8 inch on. It seems to dampen/ slow the rolling motion and twitch and seems to dampen out some yaw as well making it feel more directionally stable. There is some twisting motion to the rudder causing to boat to lean but it doesn’t really bother me. Maybe the elliptical is more aggressive at this than 8 inch weedless i have on. I also feel that extending the bungee cord from the front of the cockpit to the peddles with a good bit of tension so they self center helped as well. It keeps the rudder from flapping back and forth as the boat rolls if you don’t have your toes firmly on the peddles (i keep them angled slightly forward so i don't move them when driving my legs). This seems to help dampen boat roll even more and i think its makes it more directionally stable (no loose rudder flapping)… and it just feels better. It feels faster to me as well but i have zero empirical evidence to back that up.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #19057 by Shackleton
I live in Kansas, which most people don't associate with kayaking, but there are a lot of man made reservoirs. Since it is Kansas it is always windy. The waves are usually 1-3 feet often broaching waves because of the direction the lakes are aligned in association to the wind.

Often, there will be a strong wind but not big waves because there is not enough fetch. The wind will practically blow you over or blow the paddle out of your hand. Surfing is hard because the waves are so close together.

I could handle the v10s in this and it was just challenging enough to be fun. I demoed the new v10 but it was on flat. It was more lively than v10s but I handled it fine.

The seat in the v10s was deeper and I was able to sink down in it and use my hips more for stability, which I learned to do during many years of sea kayaking. I feel like I am sitting more on top of the new v10 and was worried that, for me anyway, it would feel less controllable in rough conditions.

I am about 6' 215, stocky build. I don't think most racing style boats are made for people my size. Although, my heavier weight pushes boats into the water more and makes them more stable.
Last edit: 9 years 2 weeks ago by Shackleton.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19058 by Kocho
I feel the seat shape of the Sport (pre-latest gen, after the first gen with the even wider seat) was less supportive for me than the one in the new V10. The Sport's seat widens out more as it goes up compared to the one in the V10. It could be the seat bottom on the V10 is a bit wider and flatter than the Sport but I can't tell for sure as they both fit me well near the bottom of the seat. Plus, I never got the chance to paddle them back to back (sold the Sport before I ever sat in the V10).

The width of the cockpit at the calves is also narrower on the V10. Good for me as the Sport I felt was too wide there.

Both of these make the V10 more connected for me, especially now that I've bundled-up with winter gear (was near freezing air today).

Yet, the V10 has a smidgen more foot room due to the new design of the rails. Just enough that my feet are now next to each other rather than slightly on top of each other as they were in the Sport when wearing my paddling shoes... And with the big foot pedals they are tall enough for my large feet.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19059 by JohnK
Hi Kocho,
My experience moving from the V10S to the new V10 has been very similar to yours. It promotes better technique and it forces one to learn control of the both with the body and paddle. However I noticed that in turns on the flat the rudder shudders as if it is stalling (on the flat at least). I also find the turn radius is very large compared to the Sport.I have the eliptical rudder and find it not as usable as the universal rudder on the V10S which was effective and predictable.
Have you had this experience?

Cheers

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19060 by Jmuzz
The difference between a large and small rudder is fairly easy to feel.
The big rudder has less twitch since the boat is slower to wobble from side to side, the rudder is locked in place by more water.

But the big rudder will also make the boat tilt more violently when turning quickly. So in that way it is less stable.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19061 by Kocho
I feel the V10 rides deeper in the water, kind of less rocker. I think both the tail and the nose are deeper underwater than on the Sport. I am catching more leaves with the nose as I paddle and can't shake them off. Almost never had this problem with the Sport. The tail I think is also deeper in the water, thus harder to swing around. Yes, I feel it turns less tight than the Sport. Yes, it is longer, but I think this is not the only reason. I use the same rudder on both.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19062 by Newbflat
Ha!... 15 mile paddle today and 5 unshakable leaves, very annoying. I'm not sure how they let this happen.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #19063 by Kocho
They only test with Oscar paddling in a salty ocean a $7k ultra light version? That's 20lb displacement difference compared to me in my 35lb layup in fresh water, so maybe his does not catch anything ;)

No excuse IMO for catching every leaf and not being able to shake it off - an inch more rake in the front would have avoided that without much effect on anything else. But I do see there could be some logic in the rear and front being a bit underwater as opposed to just skimming the surface on flat water. While there is some penalty in terms of increased surface area drag, there is also less yaw at each stroke = more efficient strait line performance. On a wave the nose is planted anyway, but the tail lifts up so it is maneuverable... I don't know if that was all intentionally designed or just happened.
Last edit: 9 years 2 weeks ago by Kocho.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19064 by Shackleton
What do you guys wear for cold water surf skiing? I used to wear a dry suit but had to put so many clothes on underneath to protect from cold water immersion that I couldn't move, kind of like the kid from Christmas Story. Now I just wear wetsuits. They are warm, slimmer and naturally wind resistant.

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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #19065 by Kocho
Dry suit with layers. Not happy about it as it restricts my movements too much. But I always thought a wet suit won't be any better for ski paddling... What brand thickness do you wear and in what temps?

In the transition period I use neo shorts and a dry top, but that's only for a few weeks in the Fall and Spring. Then it is either the dry suit or just shorts and no top...
Last edit: 9 years 2 weeks ago by Kocho.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19066 by Jmuzz

Kocho wrote: I feel the V10 rides deeper in the water, kind of less rocker. I think both the tail and the nose are deeper underwater than on the Sport.


I have observed that with a 95kg paddler the V10S still had its nose out of the water. It has a lot more rocker than V10.

So yeah the V10S is unlikely to catch leaves since they will go right under the hull without ever touching the vertical bit of the nose.

V10 meets the water square and catches lots, the little rounded bit sits under the waterline unless you are very lightweight.
I guess they just designed entirely for ocean with no compromises made for flat water with its leaf problems, even though that compromise would have only been a couple of cm extra length or shorter waterline.

As a purebred uncompromising ocean racecraft I guess it doesnt matter. But for flat water use a bit more rake on the nose would be better.

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9 years 2 weeks ago #19083 by Shackleton
I just use a 3mm full scuba wetsuit with splash gear over when it's really cold. I have a 2mm shorty with splash gear when it's chilly. The tight neoprene does restrict movement some even though I bought it a couple of sizes too big.
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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #19092 by Newbflat
More than a bit off topic but what the hell. Around here (Puget Sound) the water is about 50° (10°c) in the winter and the air in the 40's (4°c) or sometimes colder. I use a 3/2 full suit if it's rough or it night be difficult to remount. For everything else I use a 2mm NRS rodeo bottoms and a 1.5 mm O'neill "hyperfreak' top. It's just as stretchy if not more so than a NRS hydroskin top plus a lot warmer. The newest top of the line neoprene is much stretcher and soft than just a few years ago and worth checking out. Something like the newest (2013) O'neill's psycho 1 3/2 or equivalent in another brand are really worth checking out. The new "Technobutter" (O'neill) neoprene is really nice (as is the newest top of the line stuff from other manufactures) , hence my hyperfreak 1.5 mm top that's as stretchy as hydroskin. For me the 3/2 suit is a good compromise. It's warm enough to give me good insolation for a reasonable amount of time in the water (30 min?) and still be functional, but is thin enough that I don't fry... Sort of. If I can't get back on the ski in 30 min, it's time to call for help. Anything thicker would be too hot for me. Top of the line suits are also nearly dry, only letting in a tiny amount of water. I have been in my suit in the water for 30+ min practicing remounts and testing in cold water and afterwords my back and thighs were still dry. Wetsuits work better for me than my drysuit as with insolation on and all the extra fabric and zipper under a PFD its just as if not more restricting. It also feels heavier both on and especially when remounting and just feel bulky. Neoprene is also MUCH better for swimming if needed.

A comment about poor fitting or loos fitting wetsuits. There ineffective. You want to keep as much water out of the suit as possible and ideally none is best. The whole idea that a thin layer of water inside of a wetsuit somehow helps keep you warm is BS. The only thing water does is take up space and helps keep more cold water from exchanging. If it's a loos fit you get too much water exchange and your suits effectiveness is much reduced. The less water the better and none is best. This is why a tight suit is a warm suit. A good proper fitting 3/2 surfing suit in the new super stretchy neoprene will be MUCH warmer than a 3mm over sized dive suit and I would bet even easier to paddling in. Surfing suits are cut for swimming and are better for paddling than dive suits. Do yourself a favor and check out the new surfing suits out there.
Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)
Last edit: 9 years 2 weeks ago by Newbflat. Reason: Totaly messed up double post from my iphone

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