Wings or No Wings...that is the question.

Dear all,

I have owned my Ski for nearly a year now and whilst in England I never fell out of the boat, not once.

That said, I always paddled on lakes and tarns and never on the sea.

Whether it is the difference in water (with the addition of swell as well as waves) or the fact I am dehydrated but I am falling in a lot.

I have tried to keep going using my wing paddles until now but my long shafted Lendal Sea Kayaking paddles are calling to me as I know I can scull or use support strokes if I get into trouble with a flat bladed paddle.


My cousin, who paddles a lot has said I should stick with my wings as moving on to the wings in the future will be like starting again.

At the moment I am not enjoying being on the water. I can get through the breaking waves fine. It is just when I am out on the water with waves hitting me from two directions that I fall out. Then I get bashed around trying to get back in.

I am covered in bruises and finding the prospect of going "off shore" daunting as I am worried I will fall in and then expel a lot of energy getting back in the boat (it is 30 - 35'C here almost all the time and almost 90% humidity so after several remounts I am exhausted (last time I fell in and remounted 6 times in a 45 min training session).

Should I change to a more "supportive" paddle? Or should I practise balance/ general stability in my ski?

Any advice on either paddle choice and/or training excersises would be great!

Thanks in advance

Will

Clearly on a ski which is too tippy. Paddle change will make no difference.

I am a strong believer that the right paddle will make you more stable in a tippy ski. Eg a teardroped gamma shape offers me less support than a classic parallell paddle such as Meek G series.

The difference may help you reduce the some odd bracing or improve the boat run. But I agree it will not help in your case where you fall in 6x in 45 minutes.

Assuming that your core and balance is reasonably OK, I think the focus on boat stability is somewhat overrated. I believe good technique is the key to stability. A stable boat will mask poor technique. A relatively tippy boat will show you very quickly if your technique promotes paddle forces in the "wrong" directions.


1; focus on forward stroke technique

2; If you have access to a more stable boat then get it, maybe 2 stability steps down for the ocean.

3; I would get a medium parallell paddle, like the Meek G. Smaller paddels may feel are less stable.

4;do core training, and

5; paddle your boat every day and challenge yourself. Stay in increasingly challenging waters as your stability progresses, but no need to waste traing time in by continous and unplanned swims and remounting.

Your ski is the problem it is too unstable, it has nothing to do with the paddle.

I have been paddling in the ocean for over 30 years and know what I am talking about. Flat water is very easy.

You will have NO chance of correcting your stoke in an unstable ski!

Ranga, what should the guy do if he lives a place with no other ski options? Give up and accept that he will be unstable for the rest of his paddling career?
Everything is possible with hard work and good help - but it may take (much) longer time

Fredrik, obviously he can pop down to the local shop and get another paddle?

I know Epic ship skis world wide, crated and shipped anywhere.

Some people have natural balance and others do not, obviously if you train like mad things will get better, but why go through such agony when you don't have to and then to find you could never paddle what you have anyway.

I paddle for enjoyment and swimming is not what I hope for when getting a ski.

I see many guys giving up paddling after a while when they battle so much as it is no longer fun.

I don't have that much experience with paddles, but I do know that out of the 5 or so different paddles that I have tried over the years, that the Epic mid-wing is one of the easiest paddles to use.

But I'm with the guys who recommend trying to get a more stable ski. What ski are you in at the moment?

Even tippy skis vary in how easy they are to remount. Deep seated, high rail cockpits are much more difficult than slightly wider, shallower ones.

But in terms of frustration and likelihood of just giving up... get a more stable boat if possible.

We totally, agree that getting a stable boat is the quick-fix

..... and the most fun way to go

Will, the question that comes to my mind is what type of paddling are you doing?

If you are sight seeing, stop, start, cruise then yes, a wing paddle is certainly a harder paddle to use for this. Although you can use the back of a wing blade and caress the water it isn't ideal for this style of paddling it really is designed for constant forward movement.

what ski are you paddling ??

Changing boats at this point easier said than done, but I agree with above comments re stability.

Paddling technique can help in rough stuff by ensuring sweep of paddles angles out away from the boat at maybe 30%, withdrawing blade adjacent hips. Accentuate an outward sweep, feeling your winged blade holding you up like a pontoon in the rough. Observe your top hand as you paddle; if it crosses in front of your face on a 45 degree downward angle you are most likely paddling behind yourself, enormously compromising your stability. Try to run that top hand maybe at nose level across your face / the horizon. This may drop to a flatter lower trajectory if really windy. If you are twisting from the hips your blade will be well out from the boat and snicking out next to your hips (paddling much behind that point is counterproductive anyway if you consider the physics). By the time the blade is withdrawn it is behind the hips but I reckon aim to avoid getting caught behind yourself.

Other techniques you may not be using (sorry if stating obvious) are brace/support strokes and sweeps of the paddle blade across the top of the water or deeper in the water halfway through a stroke. Read up and practice, there's no question at all that these can help keep you upright.

You're pushing the envelope too much; consolidate, take little steps. You need to have some wins under your belt to keep on getting back in the ring.

Oh yeah, your question - "wing paddle or no" - go the wing paddle for sure, as described above will help stability. What is more difficult and does take time to learn is using the odd shaped blade in the water when supporting e.g. knowing at what angle the blade is. A sleeve or paddle insert can help - think they're called locators which are cheap as chips, buy online. Only really need one rather than for both hands but whatever.

To answer one of the OP's questions; there is a big difference between fresh and salt water.
I come from a salt water background, but have done all but 1 paddle in the last year in fresh water, the 1 sea paddle I did was in an identical boat to the one I paddled almost daily on fresh water, and it was a totally different sensation, I was all over the place, had to do a lot of correction strokes.
My next paddle in the sea will be in a more stable boat.

Dear all,

Thank you all for your advice and words of wisdom.

In terms of my paddling experience I should say that I have paddled a lot since I was 5 (so for 24 years) and I have paddled a range of boats. With a "normal" sea kayaking paddle i can keep myself in any boat (a K1 on the sea for instance, using support strokes where needed. It is just I was encouraged to use a "wing" paddle whilst paddling the ski (and whilst I was on lakes felt fine (I never fell out))....I have got out on the Sea and it is a completely different story.

The Ski I have is an Icon Genesis (www.iconsurfcraft.com/ocean-ski.php) and is it described as a pretty stable boat. It took a lot to get my ski into Brunei (importing anything into Brunei is a big headache!)So changing my ski is not as easy as in other countries.

I am going to try getting out on the water and "sitting" the boat whilst supporting myself with sculling strokes. That way I have a "go to" position if I get into rough water or have a "wobble".

The Bruneian coastline is beautiful, with jungle going all the way down to the South China Sea. I am desperate to get out and tour along the coast but need to be stable enough to do it.

So, seeing as changing my boat is not really an option at the moment and I really want to be out on the water I am going to try the following:

1. Practise inshore (there is a small sheltered bay i can paddle in).

2. Sit in the "bigger stuff" and scull/use support strokes to keep myself upright.

3. Practise going into the waves (something I find easier to do) and then turning alongside the swell (Something I have found harder)whilst using support strokes when needed and keeping my speed up (I feel a lot more stable when going at speed.

Are there any other techniques you have used/ used when you first started paddling a ski that I might add to my training?

Thanks for all your help.

Kind Regards

Will

Here's the thing: if you want to keep your balance without bracing, a wing is better. A non-wing is better to throw low or high braces, to do sculling braces - but as soon as you do that, you are not paddling any more. So, as suggested, work on learning the wing. I paddle both kinds of paddles (in different boats) and the wing is by far more reassuring in the ski and more effective at keeping you upright while still making forward progress. It took me a while to develop enough stability with the wing - as mentioned, you have to really be precise with it or you lose its support. I'm still falling off my new V10 in bumpier conditions, but it is not because of the paddle - it is the boat and my technique. Wing or not, I don't fall off my more stable sea kayak (which is considered somewhat unstable as sea kayaks go - Nordkapp RM) or from a more stable ski.

I fall off the less stable ski, but time in it in bumpy conditions seems to help very noticeably. Every time I go out I feel I am making progress and the next time I paddle more relaxed and with less fear and stiffness. So conscious time in the boat is key to stop falling off. When I first got it earlier this year, I was falling off trying to catch a tour boat's wake. Now, 4-5 sessions later, I am no longer falling off in the same conditions, so there is clearly some improvement going on. And I need to improve as I am still falling off occasionally in bumpy water and I feel I am wasting too much energy trying...

If you feel you are not making progress, change your routine. Don't get stuck. Find something that works and gradually build up skills. Otherwise you might quit too early...

Take a lesson if you can from a good wing paddle coach or fellow paddler, so you will shorten your time struggling. I wish I had taken more lessons more often. Money is an issue and time is, but regular lessons from good coaches do indeed help a lot.

Thanks for your advice Kocho.

I will persevere...

Thanks

Will

anyone have any comparisons for stability /speed on the genesis icon ?
compare against more common models.

You're probably not into leg drive when in bad tippy stuff (try to), however when really challenged I consciously push hard with heels against footboard which seems to stabilise me as a platform. It really helps. Also keep the power on. Seems counterintuitive maybe but that inertia does provide support a la bicycle. As pointed out by Kocho and maybe yourself, when tired and slower your instability increase is manifold.

Here are a couple of tips that might help. Try to keep the stroke in front of you, from up by your feet to the "9:00 and 3:00" position on each side. This will shorten the recovery time from the end to the stroke to the catch on the next one. If you stroke by pulling the paddle more parallel to the boat the wing may want to dive down and take you along with it! Let the blade "fly out" away from the boat where it naturally wants to go. Instead of bracing at the end of a stroke get the next stroke started. One of the things that's great about the wing is the catch. When I catch the water with my wing it feels very secure and stable. That gives confidence to continue the stroke. Only put the blade of the paddle in the water. If you go deep you are wasting time and energy pushing the paddle up and down. Try to sit up straight. If you are leaning back and the boat rolls to one side it tends to push you with the boat. Also leaning back will make it harder to twist your torso with the stroke.

I wish you all the best!

I had same trouble with a Fenn Elite. Was reasonably alright until I got my first wing paddle. Then kept falling out with mild side swells. I probably should have experimented more with longer shaft length as it makes a difference. I Then sold it and brought a Fenn XT and then also a Epic V10L. Can move far faster in far bigger range of conditions with confidence and am sure I would be OK in the Elite now. Good luck.

Hi Will,

I know how you feel. Your boat feels pretty good going straight out through a shore break or straight upwind but you're struggling with confused conditions or areas where you encounter waves from a couple of different directions. It also sounds like side on waves are a problem as well. I went from a very stable ski to a high performance ski and had the same experience but managed to get over it with lots of perseverance.

You've had a lot of good comments from the forum and in the absence of getting a new ski a lot of good ideas have been put forward.

My personal experience, which should not be taken as a magic cure over lots of practice and/or a more stable ski, was a change of wing paddle made a significant difference. My problem was my original paddle was contributing to capsizes as my left blade exited the water. The paddle I changed to had much more grip on the water and didn't seem to pull me in as much on blade exit. I concluded that my technique was not good enough for the original paddle as I can now use one in that ski without the same difficulty. Just to emphasize my point in reply to your post, I only experienced this in confused conditions where grabbing more fresh air than water was a concern and a wing paddle that was very forgiving on exit in turbulent water helped. Also try lengthening your paddle if it is a two piece as someone has already mentioned. By the way, you didn't mention what brand of paddle you were using?

The only tip I have to offer in your circumstances beyond what others have said is to relax your hips when turning the ski across the waves. The bad news is it can be really hard to learn as it involves trusting the ski's stability. So try this as an exercise. When you turn the ski around across the waves set yourself a goal of not missing a single stroke. Every time the blade is in pulling you are stable. If you hesitate putting the blade in you lose stability. Forget about the waves when turning, just keep paddling with purpose and lower your hands if it helps. Driving your heel into the footboard also helps but this is challenging when your toe is hard on the rudder. If a wave knocks your stern around as you turn then use it to get where you want by putting a blade in and pulling rather than saying OMG and hestitating. I agree with the other posts that infer changing to a non-wing paddle won't achieve what you need in this sort of craft because you're sitting on it, not in it like you may have been used to.

I also read somewhere that a wad of chewing gum in your mouth can help you stop locking your hips up. I tried this and it really helped me to let the ski roll underneath me whilst my torso remained vertical. Maybe when my jaw was unclenched my death grip on the paddle relaxed and my torso started moving independently of my butt!

Stick with it as I'm sure you'll tame it with your attitude.