Fenn Mako 6 and FEnn EliteSL

I would like to know what is the difference between the Mako 6 and the Elite SL.

The Mako 6 is a previous generation boat; the Elite and Elite SL are faster and handle better.

The Elite SL:
- is (for me) perceptibly more tippy.
- is narrower
- has less rocker
- is less prone to broaching on waves (the M6 was particularly prone to broaching, but this could be reduced by putting a larger elliptical rudder on the boat).

The Elite SL (to me) is an Elite level ski; the M6 can be paddled more easily by an intermediate paddler.

Dawid Mocke (current world surfski champ and #1 ranked surfski paddler in the Oceanpaddler World Series) paddles a Mako Elite. Most of the other top ranked paddlers who paddle Fenn, paddle the Elite SL.

After 2 years of paddling the Elite, I tried the Elite SL and felt that for me any increase in speed was offset by my feeling of tippiness. Since then I've started paddling intermediate level boats and found that I paddle as fast (and faster in rough water) because of the tippiness factor.

Right now my favourite boats are the Genius Blu by Knysna Racing Kayaks and the Fenn Swordfish. (The Blu is slightly tippier than the Blu but is still very much intermediate level. I find it slightly faster than the Swordfish unless I'm in hectically rough, messy water, when I prefer the SF which, for me, is pretty much bullet proof.)

Is there much difference between the mako6 and the elite????? I owned an elite found a great boat but have dropped back to a swordy for the rough water.

Don't be put off at least trying the SL, I was expecting something riding on a knifes edge but I didn't feel uncomfortable in it. I paddled it at a demo day along with the Think Uno and Carbonology Atom and would have said it was more stable than those two skis.

I've owned the Mako 6, Elite and now SL, all in carbon. Stability wise, the Elite is similar to the Mako 6, and overall its a much better ski, steers better on the waves and is faster.

The SL is more tippy on primary stability, but still has good secondary stability, far better than the Atom : I agree with AR convert here.

Of the 3 Fenn skis the Elite is the best choice if you're not sure you can handle the SL. If you're not comfortable with the Elite, then the Swordfish is the more stable alternative : don't bother with the Mako 6 unless you pick up a bargain 2nd hand one.

I've owned the Mako 6, Elite and now SL, all in carbon. Stability wise, the Elite is similar to the Mako 6, and overall its a much better ski, steers better on the waves and is faster.

The SL is more tippy on primary stability, but still has good secondary stability, far better than the Atom : I agree with AR convert here.

Of the 3 Fenn skis the Elite is the best choice if you're not sure you can handle the SL. If you're not comfortable with the Elite, then the Swordfish is the more stable alternative : don't bother with the Mako 6 unless you pick up a bargain 2nd hand one.

Agreed 100%

For me the Elite is pure joy downwind. But, when the wind is really howling and the swell is big and we're faced with the 800m diagonally into the wind to get out to Bakoven Rock at the start of the Millers Run... well, my feet sweat. (Millers Point itself is to downwind to your left and if you really cock it up... you're onto the rocks.)

In contrast, in truly hectic weather like that, on the Swordfish my focus changes completely and I can put all my strength into my stroke instead of staying upright. But, then I miss the feeling of the Elite on the downwind... Not that the SF is a bad boat; it's just not an Elite! And from my times, in rough weather I go as fast if not faster on the SF... A bit of ego in there too.

Again, I think there may be some size specific bias here.
I find both the Elite and the SL stable as hell but talking to smaller types and they think they are wobbly.

I think that boats stability feel is more a testament of the timing of the appearance of the secondary stability, than of the overall amount.

A UNO MAX to comes in at just the right rate and so does the V12 making them feel more stable to me than so called more stable boats.

To me there is nothing in the V10 to Elite stability to split them, although there is a bit more secondary in the Elite.

The SL just feels nice and is very maneuverable.

I personally find a V8 wobbly as the hull follows every little water movement as does the think EVO.

So what I guess what I am saying, is that everybody will have a far differing feeling from each boat.

Your overall weight, as well as your weight distribution will change the way the boat behaves under you, so there is really no shortcuts to simply getting in the boats and trying them for yourself.

To me, the stability all comes from the paddle.
The more confident and aggressive you are, the more stability you get from it.
I also believe that there is much to be gained from the skinniest skis as there are affected less by water movement than the so called more stable ones.

So get in them, find the one that has enough primary stability to keep you comfortable, a secondary stability that appears just when when you need it and paddle with confidence.

Just like paddles, you need to really try them out to find the one that is you.
Just make sure that the final decision is your own and not your mates.

Try telling a beginner that stability comes from the paddle! Stabilty comes from beam. The Swordfish has more beam than the Elite, thus more stable. The V10 Sport has more beam than the Swordfish, thus more stable. The V8 has more beam than my ute and is basically impossible to fall out of. True that weight will "sink" a boat more and may add to stability, but you take a paddler's weight as a given. For a given paddler, the more beam the more stable.

Seriously RAB. I'd love to see you do the Doctor in your v12. 10ks out to sea in a large lumpy ocean and 25knts seabreeze. I'd almost pay to see you out there.

You pay for it Dicko, I'll be there!
I find the V12 more stable than my V10.

I also rekon that the V8 is a wobbly old thing.

I simply don't like a boat that follows every little bump in the water, the narrower hulls are much more immune to small side chop.
When you learn that the stability comes from yourself and not the boat, the skinnier hulls are simply better.


Metro, tell a beginner to take the paddle out of the water and see how stable he is.
Why do we skim our paddle when surfing?
It creates a stable tripod.
The paddle does the same when paddling.

The beginner struggles because he has a paddle that is far too long and is paddling very slow so finds no benefit from the paddle.
They may also have a very poor lock with the water and so do not feel they can Trust it.

Give them a short paddle appropriate to their speed, make it a slightly larger blade to begin with and then reduce it as they get better and you will be amazed at the size of the smile on their faces.




This whole surf ski world is stuck in a rut of using paddles that the champions use and not taking benefit from the cheapness of a paddle compared to a boat and using true beginner paddles.

Give me a paddler that is currently falling out all the time, let me give them a proper paddle and you will see that their gain in ability will far surpass going to the next widest class of boat.

Everybody is so scared of using a slightly larger blade because it will be too hard to pull.

Bullshit, if the paddle is bigger than needed then your only penalty is extra weight and more windage.

If you want to make the paddle a lighter pull, do it with the length, not with the blade size.

If you find a larger blade harder to pull than your current blade, then you are using a too long paddle and a too small blade that is slipping to correct for the too long length.


Everybody poo poo's the idea, but then they have never owned a bunch of paddles, never stepped outside of what their mates are doing and believe that because a Olympic champion is using a 213cm paddle that it must be the best for them.

What a bunch of lazy conformists.

Everybody has no idea, but says I must be wrong even though they have no idea themselves and have never tried anything out for themselves.

Ten years from now, we will have finally woken up to the idea of buying a beginner paddle, it will be short to suit the slower paddling speed of a beginner, it will have a larger more friendlier blade, we then progress through to smaller blades as technique improves and lengthen them as speed increases.

People won't get injuries from using large blades because they will have a proper length paddle, there will be free thinking and experimentation and a good healthy trade of paddles as people progress with their paddling.

All these bloody wives tales will finally be recognised for what they are and we will all have more fun and giggle at the twits from these times that gave a beginner an elite paddle and told him that that is the best one for him and that they will grow into it eventually.

Stability comes from the paddler, not the boat.
Basically, the boats are already too tippy, stick a dummy body in it and it will tip over.
Only a human can keep it upright.





Wanders off muttering,'bunch of spineless conformists with no idea, that just do what their mates do because it must be right because some pro uses it'.

RAB : if I'm 5 ft 10, mid pack paddler, what do you think should be the length of my paddle? I followed advice from Mr Bennett himself as to blade size/ paddle length? I would have thought he would know something about paddles?

JDF

Rightarmbad wrote: You pay for it Dicko, I'll be there!

I reckon if we started a trust fund and asked for $5 donations from surfski.info members we'd get him there Dicko. In fact the organisers may even chip in to get him there too. It would attract others who want to test themselves against RAB

Make it $10 and we can fly Rambo in to film it. Then everyone could enjoy the experience. Geez I might even enter.....actually no cos,a) he may beat me and b) no one I know has ever had fun out there.

Dicko wrote: Make it $10 and we can fly Rambo in to film it. Then everyone could enjoy the experience. Geez I might even enter.....actually no cos,a) he may beat me and b) no one I know has ever had fun out there.

I reckon we're about due for a good one.

Rambo might be busy up the front of the race somewhere, maybe we could throw a camera to the tail end recovery boat as an incentive not to be filmed being helped off the water

I'll not bug into the Doctor participation, but I support suggestion of, at least, using different paddles when testing a new, maybe tippier surfski.

Personally, I find a noticable difference in stability using eg Bracsa IV, Jantex Gamma and Orka Flex. A real difference or placebo?? Well, who cares if you get more confident and the Garmin show a happy high number

Having said that, I have yet to use a paddle closing the tippiness gap between an intermediate boat and Fenn SL. (the largest paddle I have tried was a Jantex Beta Large and that was definetly a no-go)

Let's be careful not to freak out any good folks new to the sport. If the advice is: Get a narrow ski and a large wing, our new friend is going to spend most of the time swimming and when they do actually get to paddle, they are going to smoke themself by pulling a blade that is too big.

For a 5km sprint, go for your life - paddle with a waffle iron. For long distance ocean paddling / racing or marathon, shorten the length and opt for the smaller blade. The most efficient way to move a boat is no different than a bicycle: gear down and spin. What length and size will obviosuly depend upon strenght. But from a relative standpoint, most of us should be thinking shorter and smaller (and yes there is an obvious joke to be had there).

I did have a big long reply to this thread but it magically disappeared whilst I was typing it. Grrr.

Just to go through quickly though, I am suggesting a combination of much smaller length and larger blade.

A larger blade by itself doesn't do anything but a larger blade is required to go very short.

I don't know of anybody that has tried the combination.

Many try a big blade, but at what are generally considered normal lengths, it doesn't work because the larger blade stops the loss of efficiency that a smaller blade has as it is pushed and if you just go bigger then you end up with a big blade long paddle combination that doesn't work.
It's just a huge overload.

Most feel they need a longer paddle because a smaller blade a)needs to be buried deeper to lock and b) needs to be longer to make up for it's loss of lock as it is pushed harder.

The key to a short paddle is the big blade, it locks quicker so looses less time before propulsion happens and this is critical in a quicker stroke.
It also suffers less from loss of lock as it is pushed so maintains it's power as speed rises.

It is important that the two go together.

If you just go short, you loose the catch and the stroke moves backwards and loses your good force angles quickly.
You must get a quick catch!

If you just go bigger, then you overload yourself because the bigger blade recovers the losses you normally have with a smaller blade.

The bigger blade catches quicker, essential for a short paddle.
The shorter length keeps the tempo high and the paddle forces low.
Even though your have a bigger blade.

I gave my big blade, very short paddle to a Fenn 5 paddler and the first comment was how easy it was to pull compared to her own.
In spite of a MUCH larger blade area.

The second comment was how solid and trusting she found it.


So taken in isolation a big blade is a bad idea.
It is the combination that is critical.

A shorter paddle with a larger blade doesn't suffer from the often seen increase in tempo without a corresponding increase in boat speed that is seen when paddlers attempt to rapidly accelerate.

It just bites and goes and the tempo is set by the length.

The paddles commonly used today are a fudge that uses a compromise of blade slip and a requirement of a longer blade to dig deeper and to not over rev.
The short length/ big blade combo takes a differing approach and says lets get rid of the fluffyness and simply set the tempo by the length and have a blade that will not slip.

As history has taken us from very long flat bladed paddles to shorter wings, the lengths I suggests at first seem outrageous, but so did the 210cm lengths used now days compared to the mid thirties older paddlers were used to.

It's just one step further down the evolutionary path.

We have a resistance to try this short because of where we have come from.
It is only recently that we can buy an adjustable length paddle.

I bet you have never contemplated or even seen a big blade/195cm paddle, let alone tried it.
Anybody that has, please post up with the flaws you found in this system.

I started this trek to silly length paddles to find out exactly what the limits are.
I wanted to know what it is that finally makes you say, 'that's just too short to work'.

But I still haven't found it.
At 195cm, for me, the catch just starts to go a bit fluffy and as this is supremely important in going short, I've got another bigger blade on the way to see what happens.

Again, I bet nobody has even contemplated this combination, and I bet nobody will post up and say they tried it.

But I will have, and I have learnt a lot in the process.

If nothing else, I have learnt that most are closed minded to anything but what they have been shown and are too scared to try anything new.


And I will guarantee that I can get a beginner to be happier in a V10 sport with my paddle, than a V8 with a so called normal one.
And that it translates well to the pointy end as well.


So go ahead and flame me, but I'm the one that has put my money where my mouth is and done it.
I hold the paddles in my hand. I've tested.
I've found the flaws, I've found what works and understand it.

But best of all, I now have a paddle that allows me to paddle easier without overloading my joints in an efficient range that is less effected by the wind and gives a confidence inspiring smile every time I go paddling.


Everybody else, continue on as always; after all, you seem to know it all already, well you must do, mustn't you?
Otherwise, what is your justification of using your current paddle apart from that is what you were given or bought the first time, or used because your mates or some champion used.........gotta be the best one for you.......





Sits on the shore giggling as yet another beginner is struggling to come to grips with an awkward long paddle being blown by the wind and paddling at 20 rpm just trying to stay upright, getting the blade caught in the water as it tries to exit and sends them for a swim.
Yep, no better way than that, couldn't possibly be.


Everything is always inside the box.

I have gone short as 206 with an Onno 3 years ago in a carbon legend in the Blackburn Challenge(19.4 miles) and had my best time up to that point. I was able to keep stroke rate high and Heart Rate pegged at exactly where I wanted it to be, since I was paddling alone for most of the race. I think a shorter paddle contributed to this. Since then I switched to Jantex gamma medium and use 208-211in both single and 2piece shafts since I like the overall "stability" and smoothness they offer in ocean conditions.

However, my stroke rate always slows in the longer races as does my HR. This was illustrated this past weekend in when Chris and I paddled a double surf ski in a flat water race. I was up front and Chris in the back. In the last two miles Chris told me to keep up my stroke rate which was getting longer and slower and my HR was dropping. I complied with a shorter stroke and increase my rate and we were able to generate more speed the last 2 miles and my HR increased as well. Always thinking about ways to improve, I thought maybe my paddle is slightly too big in a longer race, or even a shorter race in a double since I naturally paddle harder in a double. So I am having Chris take 2 mm off one of my Jantex to see if I can get either increase my stroke rate or certainly keep it as high in the longer races. Chris has expertly trimmed numerous paddles so I am excited to give this a try.

Over the years with multiple paddles and skis, I have found shorter to be helpful in stability in the ocean and I have found shorter has allowed my stroke technique to improve. My 2 cents. Wesley

Sure signs that a shorter paddle may be for you from an energy system point of view:

It takes a fair while to get your heart rate up to speed.

Loss of speed in the later stages of a race without a corresponding too high heart rate early on.

Inability to temporarily increase speed above your continuous pace during a flat water paddle, feels like you are paddling against a wall and just cannot go faster.

Your paddle feels like it may be too big of a blade when bashing upwind.

Arms get tired before your heart rate soars.




Other benefits from short paddles.

Far less windage.
Far better control of paddle in the wind due to holding closer to the blade.
No more bashing the sides of the boat in the wind.

Can paddle on the high lumps in the ocean as well as start paddling at high speeds on big waves.

Much better punching through waves going out.(less moved around by water and quicker to get the first stroke in after punching through.

Can offer better acceleration from standstill or simply a get go to grab the next runner.

Takes all the pressure off of your shoulders from top hand being much lower. (cured my numbness from a subluxed AC joint)

A more open arm position that feels a lot like lifting your seat due to stroke arm being closer to the water.

Much better timing of the leg drive as the leg drive now supports the entire stroke and not just a small part of it.

Lighter paddle, seriously, at 195cm long I'm 20cm of material less than a lot.
Much, much lighter swing weight.

Shorter paddle out of the water time so the boat has less time to get out of shape between strokes.

Encourages rotation and reach for the catch.

Even a solid catch doesn't hammer your arms and hands.

and on and on and on




Disadvantages:

Catch must be quick, although a bigger blade sorts most of that out.

You must rotate or your stroke will severely shorten.

Paddles not readily available to have a go at.







People look at you funny, call you names and think your an idiot because you don't conform to their views.








Who shouldn't use a short paddle?

Sit and twisters, if you don't fully rotate you will have no stroke length.

Smaller, fast paddlers that may need to gear up.
Especially if they are larger muscle mass types.

Anybody that hasn't got the balls to give it a go.



No doubt, there are a lot of people out there using the best paddle for them already.
But I bet that there are more out there that are yet to get to that stage.

But if you are new to the sport, have open water stability issues, have average speeds under 12km/h on flat water, if you are taller or a little older.
Then you should at least consider giving it a go.



Flame on......