Epic V7 durability

Hi

first time on this forum. Hoping for views on people's experience with the V7

As a background, I'm based in Perth and need to upgrade my Avon Descent boat (2 day rocky white water race for those from elsewhere. I seem to hit every rock on that river when I go down it so I need a tough boat).

Have paddled Finn Endorphin last few times I did the Avon, have used a Spirit PRS in the past but had major problems with painful dead leg so got rid of it after 1 season and don't want to go there again. Currently paddle EVO 11 on ocean / deep water river.

V7 seems to fit the bill in terms on speed / stability / comfort for this race for me but need to know how it stands up to bashing on the rocks going down the rapids (which can be pretty rocky on low water years)

Cheers

We paddled V7's extensively last year on a local river that went very low at times. Many rocks were struck and lots of scrapes were endured with no damage beyond superficial scratching. This river, however, is rather slow so we weren't shooting any rapids. I'm sure the right rock at the right speed could cause trouble for it (or any boat), but it seems to have a better blend of speed/durability than pretty much anything else out there.

see 1rst post but scroll down to the big O. downriver pic and the other comments:
www.surfski.info/forum/20-epic/18417-ste...s-epic-v7.html#24082

I'd say it also depends on the typical rocks a river has: sharp or round.

I got a V7 by now for the family (for abuse lol) and visiting guests/friends (to get them addicted) and for me (for winter paddling), but I'll use it for down river too for the rocky parts shallow "whiter" parts but used it so far for easy rives here in the alps with the standard rock scratching and the soca.

Only experience so far besides harmless river scratching was on a lake where I have hit a rock with the normal rudder, GPS had the speed at 8.8 km/h, the hit was really hard + stopped me almost instantly. I was really concerned about the possible dammage as the rudder jammed, so steering was impossible. However, at the shore I could bent the rudder back and the only dammage was a small coined area in the plastic by the rudder (and dents in the rudder) . Will not happen with a kick-down rudder on a river obviously, but I was im pressed that "nothing" more severe happened to the rudder mounting. The coined area has been working its way back again to be less deep and is almost no visible anymore.

What I don't like on my V7 is what I've seen on other V7s before:
two foam bulkheads are glued into the hull with silicone and the silicone is coming off ...,
note that PE = non/low polar plastics which means that stuff hardly sticks to it without a flame/corona treatment; so I was a bit surprised to see that actually it was tried "to silicone stuff in" and the silicone got loose already

did you also consider the Vajda Raptor? even tougher material imo

I would like to see a Vajda Raptor. Do they exist outside of Australia? It looks like Vajda introduced it over a year ago and their web page only has one picture and the barest of specifications. Maybe the ship carrying all of the Raptors and Think Nitros to the USA was sunk.

@rhainan, bigger in Europe and sold downunder, don't know about USA. But I agree totally with you on "marketing" and information ... Be it Nelo, Vajda, Kape, Sipre, whoever ... in some EU countries marketing+product info or bringing webpages from 1990s to post y2k is something they do not bother with ... or heard of? If you want info, go to the FB page and ask a poster there who bought one about the features ... for videos check youtube/vimeo to find some private vids of some paddlers ... or dig yourself through discussions groups ... or call them ... or book your next holiday in that village and ring doors to ask some locals. The product pages (if they load at all) are ment to be riddles rather than sources to base purchse decisions on (if you can't test paddle due to distance, which is often the case here) ... or maybe these companies are way ahead by outsourcing all this to the gras root followers lol

Raptor, I got to inspect one once but those days, but did not paddle it + did not accept the idea of thermoplastic skis as I just came from platic kayays lol ,,, well, that was then ,,, damn those prejudices ,,, lol ... the built quality was superb, way above my V7 which features dirt collecting burst foam bubble areas on some parts of the hull (obviously the Raptor has a great finish due to vacuum thermoforming over rotomolding, the installations, even down to the hatch cover, esp. when you look inside the cover), the material used is known to be very tough even over PE. However, I opted for a V7 a year later instead, reason was remountability (low height of side walls) and the insane stability as I intended it to be used by guests/friends as well = complete novices in most cases.

The thing is, I'd see the Raptor for downriver due to its material vs. PE with DIY fixed kick down rudder ... while Vajda most likely won't even care about downriver for that boat until the user decides to do so. Or because I have no clue ... most likely though.







expeditionkayaks.blogspot.de/2015/03/pla...v7-vajda-raptor.html

Think Nitro is 4 month overdue ... not that easy to do things right it seems ... but I'm really,keen to test that one ... lne day.

PS: since you are an Epic dealer, in the case of the V7 ... do you know why they try to glue the foAm bulkheads onto PE with siilicone?

Thanks to all for your replies

The link showing the big hole in the V7 is food for thought, and given my lack of finesse in white water I'll certainly be testing it, but not ruling it out yet.

Also making enquiries about the Raptor. No dealer here in Perth but can be shipped here. Also need to confirm trailing rudder is an option.

Cheers

Our customers have not reported any issues with the foam bulkheads. Our sample size is relatively small, however. On our demo boats (2) the bulkheads are intact. We are not ocean paddlers though and our waters are very low stress. No other dealers raised the issue in group therapy at the annual North American Conference. Your local dealer should address the problem.

My biggest problem are the bubble pores accumulating dirt like you mentioned. If you know of any method to clean it out the info would be appreciated. I've tried everything short of water blasting.

On the one single Raptor Ski picture that Vadja has put on their website (seemingly unchanged since 2014), it does not obviously show a built in option for a kick up rudder, nor is one listed in the accessories.

If you are going to the trouble to make the world's first thermoformed ski that clearly many people will be interested in taking places other skis can't go, why would you not make it easy to mount a smart track rudder? Epic got that one right with the V7 and V5.

We haven't had much rain this Spring and our rivers are running low. This past weekend at a local kayak triathlon the winner was in a V7 with a kick up. Second place went to a V10 Sport that took damage and lost a rudder. The V7 didn't get a scratch. All of the other local ski paddlers choose not to race and risk damage to their boats. If you can only race based on our local weather patterns you may end up staying home a lot. For $1400-$1500 a V7 or Raptor (if available) is money well spent for a second boat I think. Of course, as I sell kayaks I think everybody should have multiple boats, preferably Epic

@rhainan

Raptor rudder, yep, that is why I wrote to use a "DIY kick-down rudder", however, retrofitting w.b. easy IMO. However you are right, I also have asked here before, why Vajda seems to not have bothered to include that option. On the other hand, as I know them, you'll most likely get that option when you phone them. Same as with ordering hatches on their surfskis or get them as 2- or 3-piece surfkis: was long availabe even before some dealers knew.

EDIT: OK checked > "Smart Track Rudder (flip off-Rudder) option: 75,-€"

V7: "My biggest problem are the bubble pores accumulating dirt like you mentioned"
If close after paddling=same day even using the normal garden water hose works (if the nozzle delivers a decent water jet).

However, I had some lazy days when I didn't do that later on and the stuff did not get out using the hose. I then had to use a Kärcher high pressure water blaster and almost got it all out. I got the rest out by letting the area soak with an "Organic Orange Cleaner" (means coverd the areas with a wet towel immersed previously in that cleaner+water) and another water blasting.

I am now thinking of filling the bubbles somehow with something white or clear ... lol or try to be more disciplined with water blasting after each paddle.

" as I sell kayaks I think everybody should have multiple boats,"
Yeah as the saying goes: "The number of boats you have is n, the number of boats you think you need is n+1, the number of boats your family thinks is sufficient for you is 1".

+1 for the poorly attached bulkheads. Mine was ok, but it looks quite messy, while one of the other guys at our club had the boat arrive with one of the bulkheads hanging off.

Other than I haven't noticed any major issues with the boat in 6 months of ownership. Maybe the plastic scratches easier than other rotomoulded boats I've owned, but that could be the tradeoff for the added stiffness?

+1 for the poorly attached bulkheads. Mine was ok, but it looks quite messy, while one of the other guys at our club had the boat arrive with one of the bulkheads hanging off.

Other than I haven't noticed any major issues with the boat in 6 months of ownership. Maybe the plastic scratches easier than other rotomoulded boats I've owned, but that could be the tradeoff for the added stiffness?

@spacehopper,
imo, the "stiffness" (e.g. when pressing the hull by hand or for the boat as a whole when swinging it on the ground e.g. via the stern handle) over thinner "mono-walled" PE hulls should come from the sandwich-structure which is additionally thicker. That should have nothing to do with the scratch resistance itself. Maybe a PP vs. PE issue? What thermoplastic were your other boats made of? Or they used a PE with lower molecular weight for better flow in the mould for that 3-layer structure .. or for the foaming ... or for achieving that glossy composite style surfski surface? Who knows, but I agree, with your observation on scratches.

Btw., imo, as a whole, the boat "flexes" in the water in waves, not a big deal though or is that just me? Still a great boat though for the price I am enjyoing it, esp. as is even wants to "surf" the smallest boat wakes.

Hey Lazy Paddler, cant be too Lazy to be doing the Avon Descent

Good question regarding the V7, I wondered the same. But then seeing the big hole in that one that was T-boned thought it was just as risky as composite, if it is a big water year I think you;d be fine, but not for low water. At least the Spirit and Finn skis have a bit of "give" in their rotomolding.

Lazy paddler wrote: Have paddled Finn Endorphin last few times I did the Avon, have used a Spirit PRS in the past but had major problems with painful dead leg so got rid of it after 1 season and don't want to go there again.

Don't give up on our WA made boats just yet, I too suffered from shocking dead leg in the PRS and sold it after one season, bought a Finn Molokai which was much better, but the thing that has made all these boats much nicer to paddle is having a composite ski bucket fitted. I had one sent from South Africa in the shape of my Carbonology Sport Flash bucket, wow, I can paddle all day in my plastic ski now and can adjust the height ( I dont have mine glued in). Terry at Viz Fibreglass repairs in Mandurah has done quite a few of them now, I heard he uses a Think Ski bucket for the shape of the seat and fits it to your ski. Look for Viz Fibre Glass Repairs on facebook and scroll through his photos.

All this early rain is certainly exciting for this years race

@lazypaddler
www.surfski.info/forum/35-surfski-innova...kis-racing-skis.html

scroll down for AR on the finn molokai

Thanks AR Convert

i hadn't considered that option of composite bucket. You may well have given me the answer.

I've had Terry at Viz fibreglass fix my EVO 11 and very happy with his work, and can certainly confirm the tuffness of the Spirit and Finn plastic skis so could be a great combination.

It struck home to me some years ago how tuff they are when doing the Avon and I folded the PRS. Was nudged from behind by another boat, went offline and the nose of the boat went in to the fork of a tree. The back of the boat was pushed around by the water and the boat folded halfway between nose and footwell with an almighty crunch. The nose now pointing at the tail. With a lot of swearing and effort got the boat off the tree and dragged it up the bank expecting a massive split after the sound it had made. Found no split, unfolded it then bashed the dents out with a log through the front hatch and bashed it with a rock. Turns out the noise came from the spare paddle in the nose of the boat snapping. Paddled the next 50 odd kms and some big rapids to finish the race with not even the slightest leak.

I guess I'm now looking for a boat that is as robust as that, and is comfortable, fast and stable. Not asking too much am I???

And yes I am Lazy, which is why I want a boat that does the hard work for me.