Surf Rudder

More
10 years 3 months ago #14133 by hamishglen
Surf Rudder was created by hamishglen
When would you swap out the universal rudder for a surf rudder? (Epic)
I’m pretty new to this, and just beginning to surf and link runs with around a 15 knot tailwind. Bloody good fun!
I find the boat isn’t too responsive to turn when on the wave, and I’m sure I’m doing a heap of stuff wrong – but would a surf rudder help?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14182 by hamishglen
Replied by hamishglen on topic Re: Surf Rudder
i take it no-one uses surf rudders?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14183 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Do you know someone with an Epic surf rudder?

Best idea is to try different rudders. It's amazing how different a ski can feel after changing rudders.

If you do get an 8 inch surf rudder you will most likely enjoy the responsiveness you get from it and just keep the universal one for flat water or when there's weed about (if it's the one I'm thinking about that has a more swept back leading edge.

Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14186 by Marieski
Replied by Marieski on topic Re: Surf Rudder
I put a surf rudder (Hein from Carbonology made it for me) in my Swordfish, which made it easier to control the boat going 45 degrees downwind, which I often have to do to get home. This definitely worked. However, the local Fenn representative sternly told me the rudder was slowing my boat down and I shouldn't need it if I knew how to paddle properly. I'm sure he's right. But gee it's easier........ Take from that what you like.

I'm practicing with the normal sharkfin rudder, but when I'm nervous or really couldn't be bothered worrying about falling out, I use the surf rudder.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14189 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Surf Rudder
I like the responsiveness of the surf rudder on my Vault, but there is definitely a price to pay, in greater drag, in smaller stuff.

I drilled the shaft out of the standard rudder and moved it back 1.5 cm. Huge improvement. Responds like the surf rudder but without the extra drag. I prefer this rudder over my surf rudder in most conditions.

Have done the same thing with about 5 stellar rudders and the general consensus is the boat loses the tendency to wander and goes where you point it. Yipee.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14191 by [email protected]
Replied by [email protected] on topic Re: Surf Rudder

i take it no-one uses surf rudders?

The V10, V12 come standard with surf rudders.

would a surf rudder help?

The major benefit of a surf rudder (in my opinion) is that it reduces the propensity of the boat to broach, and helps sometimes with manoeuvrability. But both of these are affected more by the shape of the hull and I've paddled boats (like the Fenn Mako6) that were absolutely transformed and others where changing the rudder doesn't seem to make much difference.

Something else to look for is whether the rudder is balanced or not. The old standard Fenn sharkfin rudder had most of the meat of the rudder behind the pin, so the faster you were going, the harder it was to turn the rudder. The elliptical rudders that I installed on my Mako Elite and Swordfish were balanced so the force on the rudder pedals to turn, even at speed, is minimal.

In my opinion the Swordfish is much improved by a bigger elliptical rudder.

However, the local Fenn representative sternly told me the rudder was slowing my boat down and I shouldn't need it if I knew how to paddle properly


With all due respect, I disagree. My opinion is that the rudder makes very little difference to the drag. If you can become one of the elite paddlers, you may well learn to steer the boat by leaning it and learn to anticipate a broach - but 90% of us are not elite by definition - so a rudder that makes the boat easier to control makes sense to me.

But I guess that might go some way to explain why I seem to be slow on flat water - it may not be that I'm old and unfit and hate grinding away - it's clearly the rudder at fault LOL!

I drilled the shaft out of the standard rudder and moved it back 1.5 cm. Huge improvement. Responds like the surf rudder


Intrigued by this - you're effectively creating a balanced rudder, and doing the same thing as moving the rudder shaft forward 1.5cm, which would change the turning moment on the ski. I've often wondered what doing the same thing to the original Fenn sharkfin rudder would do - but not had the time or skill to try it.

So in summary, in my opinion, if you're finding that your ski seems very prone to broaching in downwind conditions (and there are plenty of them that are), then give a surf rudder a go. If you can usually get the boat to go where you want, or you're paddling on flat water, then don't bother.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14198 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Exactly Rob. You are balancing your rudder.

From what I can see, the rudder foil is shaped around a mould, removed from the mould, then the shaft is added and filled with epoxy or a lighter mix to save weight. (I may be wrong)

What this means is, that you should be able to order your rudder with the shaft placed anywhere you like, or just order the foil and shaft and place the shaft in yourself.

The new rudder makes my Vault a much better boat to handle in all conditions. No vague feeling on downwinds. I can surf left or right when I want. It tracks across waves better and can turn down waves instead of wanting to turn off the back. The bigger the swell the better it appears to be.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Rod Thomas
  • Visitor
10 years 3 months ago #14199 by Rod Thomas
Replied by Rod Thomas on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Would that work for me even in a Horizon? Steering is very un-positive when going down wind

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14200 by hamishglen
Replied by hamishglen on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Thanks for the info. I don't know anyone with a surf rudder to trial, and these are $137.50 from Epic so wanted to seek some advice before splurging.

I'm gonna go splurge now....

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14201 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Surf Rudder
I replaced the rudder on the wifes horizon with a more balanced rudder and it goes well downwind.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Rod Thomas
  • Visitor
10 years 3 months ago #14202 by Rod Thomas
Replied by Rod Thomas on topic Re: Surf Rudder
What did you replace it with?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14203 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Surf Rudder
An old Vault rudder that I have moved the shaft back on. Had to retap the end of the shaft to fit the tiller. Contact custom kayaks and see if they have an alternative rudder. I assume you have that big bulbous swept back rudder that they came with.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Rod Thomas
  • Visitor
10 years 3 months ago - 10 years 3 months ago #14204 by Rod Thomas
Replied by Rod Thomas on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Yes thats right big and bulbous describes it. What would be the advantages and disadvantages of it. Presumably if it is standard on all Horizons it must be for a reason.
(I am waiting for another rudder - again a spare standard one and some Tbars- from Custom Kayaks but they take ages to ship)
Last edit: 10 years 3 months ago by Rod Thomas.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14205 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Its a stable rudder, for a stable ski.
A more balanced rudder will always be better downwind or at speed because the force in front and behind the shaft is more equalized. The faster you go the more lift the rudder generates. If the shaft is too far forward the effort required to turn it increases.
With a balanced rudder you require little effort to turn the rudder, even at speed. This tends to make the boat turn more sharply in small or flat conditions.
In an industry that is trying to find that magic stability/speed combo, making twitchy rudders can be off putting to potential buyers cos it makes the boat feel more unstable. I think most rudders are detuned somewhat because of this. Trouble is a month after you buy the boat and feel stable in it you start to want more control and better surfability. I may be wrong.....as usual.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Rod Thomas
  • Visitor
10 years 3 months ago #14206 by Rod Thomas
Replied by Rod Thomas on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Thanks for your reply. i'm glad I've got a Horizon, coz it is a seaworthy boat with a good reputation. This means I cant blame the boat for my problems (bad worker blames his tools) but I have noticed I slew around in big downwind conditions (over 20knots and over 2m short seas). In the past 100 hrs paddling I have only fallen off once. But am wondering why I dont do better downwind. It might be worth changing the rudder. So a surf rudder is long and elliptical in shape, right?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14207 by hamishglen
Replied by hamishglen on topic Re: Surf Rudder
From the link below, the one on the far right is the one I'm using now (universal), and the one on the far left is the surf. Hope this helps.

www.epickayaks.com/download/journals/ima...ews/2010/ski-rudders
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14209 by kmac
Replied by kmac on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Hamish,

My 2c's worth, EVERY ski I've paddled has been improved going from the stock swept back rudder, with a thin blade to an elliptical surf rudder. Shaft placement and a balanced rudder is one area that has been covered extensively by the other excellent posts, but bear in mind a elliptical rudder generally has a "fatter" cross section. This means it is way less prone to stalling than the thin blades on the standard rudders. This means the surf rudder continues to work at lower speeds on a wave and swell (often us non elites are only travelling marginally quicker than the swell!) and this means you still have control whereas with a standard rudder you would have a stalled rudder and no directional control....

I've fitted a surf rudder to all of the following boats and all of them surf and downwind better without a shadow of a doubt. Epic V10S, Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Elite SL, Fenn Elite, Fenn Mako Elite Double, Red 7 V70 pro. Dawid Mocke enjoyed the surf rudder on my double immensely when we did a Millers Run together in the boat. So even the pro's can feel the benefits, he just doesn't NEED it like us mere mortals do.

We recently fitted a surf rudder to two friends boats : a Fenn Swordfish and a Custom Kayak Horizon, both owners pronounced their boats transformed in the surf and chasing the lumps. Both paddlers are surfers or ex surfers and commented immediately on the control and positioning afforded by the new blade.

You actually use LESS rudder and have more control in virtually all circumstances of open water paddling with moving water, less broaching, less missed runs, less mishaps in the surf. I don't know why manufacturers persist with the rubbish standard blades, any perceived improved stability is far outweighed by the other shortcomings.

Surf Rudders for President I say!

Hein van Rooyen at Carbonology makes elliptical rudders for virtually all boats on the market at a reasonable price. About R 450.00 a pop. Best upgrade for a ski for mortals.

Cheers

Kirby
The following user(s) said Thank You: hamishglen, Rod Thomas

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14210 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Surf Rudder
I think the only down sides to surf rudders is the fact they are slower on smaller days and they pick up weed too easily. The standard rudder with the shaft set back feels like a surf rudder without the down sides.
When you buy a boat you should be able to choose a standard rudder, a sport rudder (same rudder with the shaft set back) or s surf rudder.
Manufacturers should understand that it's like fries with your burger.
The more rudder options there are means the more profit potential there is in every boat.
The Think range of rudders is sensational.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14211 by hamishglen
Replied by hamishglen on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Great info Kirby, exactly what I was looking for. Will post my feedback once surf-ruddering!
Cheers, Hamish

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 years 3 months ago #14212 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Re: Surf Rudder
Anybody have contact details for Hein of Carbonology? Would a elliptical rudder be ok on an XT?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

  • No posts to display.