Re: ski speed

There is a good selection of ski's available to us all now. Stable, novice ski's. Intermediate ski's and the elite 17" ski's. The big question , from most everyone, when getting into a new ski is usually "How fast is it?". That's the obvious question with secondary questions referring to the stability of the boat, build quality, etc. I've read some opinions stating that differences in hull speed might only be 4% between a boat like an XT vs a Millenium (assuming 100% stability, and all other things equal). Not much when you consider the major difference in paddling characteristics between those boats. The issue has even been tackled here on surfski.info with, in my opinion, a fantastic test by Rob and the guys.
So my questions to you guys and gals is, removing ego completely from the decision, what's your honest opinion on hull speed between novice (XT, etc) intermediate (EVO, Honcho Rookie, etc) and elite (Mako6, V10) type boats. How much faster, are these elite boats over the others? I'm sure some of you have experience with all three types of boat, what are your experiences?
Dave

I have not tried the more stable skis--only the Huki S1-X, Epic V10, and the Mako 6. However, I would like to comment on the 4% number. The fact is that 4% is a VERY big deal. Let us assume that you can paddle the XT at an average of 7.0 MPH for a certain distance. If you were to get a boat that was 4% faster, you would then paddle 7.28 MPH. Similarly, if you were in a race that was 2 hours long in your Mako XT, doing that same race in a 4% faster boat would result in a time of 1:55:12 --almost 5 minutes faster.

Just my opinion, but if you have access to flat water, get a tippy K1 and learn how to paddle it. If all goes well, over time, your body adapts such that during all points in your stroke, your center of gravity is PERFECTLY centered in the boat. After this exercise, all of the top end skis will seem plenty stable (at least on flat water). (Obviously, if you are too old, you may have a difficult time doing this--masters K1s are often made more stable than normal ones.)

Thomas Yonley- you have made a very good point about the age factor. Reaction time to stimulae definitely degrades, but can be offset by regular training. The other thing about good balance is the ability to relax both physically and mentally. A lack of flexability/range of motion in hips, [esp. adductors], and hamstrings can cause a lot of instability. There is nothing like a bit of careful stretching after every workout. Sprint boat stability increases with speed. You have to take control of the thing and paddle it with confidence. Head down, short strokes and a lot of bracing will dump you. I expect the faster surf skis are the same.
You are also quite right about the faster boats- all other things being equal. Still, there is a lot of time to be picked up with attention to good paddle technique and water reading skills.
I too am trying to figure what kind of surfski to buy. The more stable ones make sense- but the long skinny carbon boats sure are beautiful!

Thomas Yonley- you have made a very good point about the age factor. Reaction time to stimulae definitely degrades, but can be offset by regular training. The other thing about good balance is the ability to relax both physically and mentally. A lack of flexability/range of motion in hips, [esp. adductors], and hamstrings can cause a lot of instability. There is nothing like a bit of careful stretching after every workout. Sprint boat stability increases with speed. You have to take control of the thing and paddle it with confidence. Head down, short strokes and a lot of bracing will dump you. I expect the faster surf skis are the same.
You are also quite right about the faster boats- all other things being equal. Still, there is a lot of time to be picked up with attention to good paddle technique and water reading skills.
I too am trying to figure what kind of surfski to buy. The more stable ones make sense- but the long skinny carbon boats sure are beautiful!

I have seen some older people try to do a K1 and just never "get it". I definitly agree that not everyone will have the reaction time and muscle memory--especially with older people. However, the only way to find out is to try it. In many parts of the world, it is pretty easy to get used older K1s for very cheap (I bought one for ~$300 USD here in Texas). In my opinion, it is worth trying to paddle a cheap tippy K1 prior to getting an expensive surfski because the K1 experience will let you know your limit. If you can comfortably handle the K1, any of the newer 17 inch skis will seem very stable by comparison.

I just got my Mako 6 a couple months ago. It is an absolutely thrilling boat. However, if I hadn't learned to paddle a K1 first, I would likely be frustrated to have spent so much money on something that I couldn't stay upright in.

In all honesty, if you actually want to be competitive in races, you probably need to bite the bullet and get a 17 inch ski. If you just want to have fun, and maybe do a race or two, odds are, a 19 inch ski will be the best choice.

Based on my times in various boats over our Thursday evening time trial in flat to small chop, here is less than 5% between the learner boats (XT, Mentor) and the racing boats. Over a longer downwind paddle of around an hour and a half, the difference increases to about 10%. I am not an elite paddler by any means but I am perfectly comfortable in my Icon. In rough conditions, even an elite paddler can benefit from a more stable boat, note Jasper Mocke's record run in the Mentor.

Xpat,
10% would be significant in my book on a longer downwind run. I agree with what your saying in your reply about most folks benefitting from a more stable boat. I'm guessing only the very elite paddlers have a real handle on their boats in rougher stuff. Some of us only wish for that kind of boat control.

Total boat control??? I'm not sure I have that at any point. Taking it off the car...nope....portaging down to the beach...nope.....paddling in big nasty chop...hale no!! The fun factor is always high though.

I'm surprised with the general view that a K1 is tippier than a ski. The K1 has a significantly higher socondary stability due to the triangular shape behind the seat which helps in bracin whereas on a ski you don't have any secondary stability. Also, paddling 7mph on a K1 is hard word whereas the same speed on a ski is easier given the more efficient shape. Anyone agree?

I put myself in the newbie category for both skis and K1s, and honestly haven't paddled but a couple of K1s. Most of my K1 time is in a Lancer, which is a very forgiving K1 compared to most of the 'really fast boats'. I spent roughly 50 hours this season in my Lancer, and about 80 in my Huki S1X-S, which I picked up mid-summer. The S1XS is probably the most stable of the major 21' boats, and especially when compared to the previous generation like the Mako Millenium. And all of them are capable of doing sustaining 7mph on flatwater at a reasonable effort, including the Lancer. Almost all of my paddling is on inland waters, ranging from dead flat to surfing on 20-30mph winds.
The big HOWEVER... I've only gotten dumped out of the Huki once this year, from a large powerboat wave that caught me from behind and not paying attention to what I was doing. I've probably swam 10 times in the Lancer, none from inattention, and truly none from where the secondary stability let me down. They've been from things like getting flooded by a powerboat, not being able to bring the paddle in line with the boat going through a culvert, getting spun sideways on a marathon canoe wash/wake, and just flat running out of brace from a powerboat wave. In a K1, the 14" (or less) beam, coupled with the rounder bottom means that any problem that starts accelerates very quickly and the best brace in the world may not be enough to save you if you are out of position. I won't take the K1 out in whitecaps, and I wouldn't dream of taking it out in open water. I think in accomplished hands, a K1 is fine in a far broader range of conditions than what I'm comfortable paddling mine, but the ski is far more fun for me to paddle in significantly wider range of water conditions and when the water gets big enough to get any kind of surf - the K1 stays home!

Just a quick reply to points raised by Thomas, Dave and others

As mentioned in my first post on this topic, length overall does not effect the top speed potential of the ski. The misconception may have arisen because of the "hull speed" that is dependent on waterline length on monohull sailboats and non planing powerboats. As I explained earlier, this limiting effect does not apply once the length to beam ration exceeds 7:1. This is a very well established bit of physics, used by the Vikings in the design of their long ships and more currently in the design of VSV vessels. Although wave dynamics are not a limiting factor in kayak speed, the inertia of the water displaced by the hull as it passes through the water is. This value is exponential and rises at the square of the speed. The less you need to displace the water, the smaller the effect will be, hence a narrow boat will not be effected as much as a wider one as the water does not have to me moved as far.

Next, a K1 is faster than a ski because it has a narrower, rounder underwater profile, reducing the inertia mentioned above and the skin friction mentioned by Thomas. It also has less rocker, which again reduces the effect of the inertia of the displaced water.

And... A competitive K1 is less stable than a ski because of the hull shape mentioned above. Wings disappeared some years ago when the ICF got rid of the minimum beam rule. the were there to conform with a regulation and were never designed to enhance stability.

And also...5% performance disadvantage may sound a lot, but when you are loosing 15 minutes per hour to the front guys, an extra 3 is pretty academic. I say go for the more stable ski until you are running near the front, then start worrying about the equipment.

And finally.....I am a solidly placed D grade paddler. Although I have been paddling for many years and can handle any boat that I have tried very competently, this does not put me at the front of the pack. To get there I need better genes, better training and less beer. I would say quite categorically that you don't need to be an elite paddler to enjoy the fastest, most slippery shapes about.

Thank you for reading this far.

Stuart