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Evo & Legend in comparison to the V10 & V10S

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4570 by cgeorg
Hi,

How do the Evo and Legend compare to the V10 and V10S? I have paddled both Epics for some time but not the Thinks. I'm looking for some input regarding the following comparisons from someone that has had bucket time on these boats.

- Is the Evo faster than the V10S?
- Is the Legend's stability closer to that of the V10 or the V10S?

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4574 by Dicko
go to Wesley's review on www.surskiracing.com and see his comparison chart. They seem pretty accurate.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4576 by cgeorg
Yes, thanks. I've seen the table and noticed they place the V10S next to the Legend in terms of stability. I was surprised to see that and wanted to get additional feedback to check if this is indeed the impression of others as well.

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14 years 2 weeks ago - 14 years 1 week ago #4586 by superted
cgeorg wrote:


- Is the Evo faster than the V10S?


They are close, the EVO is a bit faster, they are both very good designs for thier intended user base. There are other things however that make the EVO a way better boat eg seams, positive floatation, seat bucket etc etc etc


cgeorg wrote:


- Is the Legend's stability closer to that of the V10 or the V10S?


I found the Legends (kevlar) stability closer to the V10S (ultra)then the V10(ultra). The Think Legend is a lot quicker though. Best if you can find the Thinks to paddle and more importantly unscreww the hatch and look inside at the well built seams and stringers.
Last edit: 14 years 1 week ago by superted.

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14 years 2 weeks ago #4591 by svengali
Evo and V10S are in a different league of stability (and speed) compared to the Legend and V10. Both are good first boats and have their pluses and minuses. Wesley's reviews are comprehensive and accurate.The Legend has better primary stability than v10 in most conditions but in my view can be less predictable in side chop and swell. As previously noted in this thread, The only thing i'd add is that in my experience the Legend not quite as stable as indicated.

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14 years 1 week ago - 14 years 1 week ago #4616 by red_pepper
I currently own both the Legend in Kevlar and the V10L Ultra. I previously owned the fiberglass Evo, and I spent about 7 hrs total paddling a rented fiberglass V10S in January. I owned the Evo at the same time I rented the V10S, making it easier to have a valid comparison.

I really didn't find a huge difference in stability between the Evo and the V10S. Both were comfortably stable, but I think I would give the Evo a slight nod in stability. I did not have my GPS with me to clock my speed in the V10S, but my "sense" was that the boat was fairly efficient, but probably not quite as fast as the Evo (but close). I thought the build quality of the Evo was better, and I really liked the features Think builds into the Evo: built in bulkhead hatch, paddle leash connection point, pluggable drain, and weed deflector. My Evo was built just before the last two items were added, but the current models (and my Legend) have those features (two features I think no ski should be without). On the opposite side of equation, I found the seat comfort of the Epic to be superior (my lower back aches after 1 - 1.5 hrs in the Think boats, but I feel comfortable after several hours in the Epics - but others have had an opposite experience), and I like the foot plate adjustment better.

It's a similar story with the V10L and the Legend as far as build quality and seat comfort, but whereas the Evo and the V10S have a somewhat similar feel, the Legend and the V10L differ significantly, in my experience. The hard chines and flat bottom of the Legend give it a more stable feel initially, and there's a lot of secondary stability when you lean it over, but the transition feels somewhat abrupt to me. As noted in the prior post, it seems a little less predictable in beam waves. Also, as the boat leans this way or that it wants to start carving turns, which requires corrections if you're trying to keep a straight line (but it makes it possible to really crank it around in a lean turn). I also found the tall, flat sides and large bow volume are noticably affected by wind and waves. These features are great in big water when surfing waves (as is the flat bottom), but I tend to paddle flat water primarily.

In contrast, the V10L has a very smooth transition between primary and secondary stability, and it seems to me to be less affected by cross-winds and beam waves. It has a little less primary and secondary stability in comparison to the Legend, but I prefer the "round bottom" feel of the boat (probably from spending a lot of time racing my Thunderbolt). The V10L is a faster boat than the Legend, which in turn is faster than either the Evo or the V10S.

I would rate the Legend as closer to the V10L than the Evo or V10S in stability. It's a higher performance ski, and while the hull shape gives it more stability than some other narrow skis, it's still 17" wide and requires some additional stability skills.
Last edit: 14 years 1 week ago by red_pepper.

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14 years 1 week ago #4619 by [email protected]
I've paddled the Think Legend a couple of times in choppy water and would definitely rate the stability closer to that of the V10 than the V10S.

For me the V10S is like sitting in an armchair, it's so solid on the water. The Legend is way friskier.

Haven't spent enough time in the boat to compare it speedwise.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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14 years 1 week ago #4621 by AR_convert
My 11 year old could paddle my V10S and not fall out....she is still trying to master the V10L, did more swimming than paddling today, but at least she was smiling the whole time, loved the challenge.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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14 years 1 week ago #4630 by cgeorg
Many thanks to all for their valuable comments!!

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14 years 1 week ago #4633 by Stew
Reviews can work as a good guide when choosing a new ski, but the best bet is to get out there and try each of the skis which interest you. That way you have an unbiased view of each, as well as the knowledge of what fitted best, ran the nicest, caught runs the easiest.

The important thing is to choose the ski which is best for you. All the best in your search.

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14 years 1 week ago #4639 by cgeorg
Thanks... yes, I know, but unfortunately surfski is not popular here and there's still no Thinks around. Thanks again.

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  • lilydipper
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14 years 1 week ago #4640 by lilydipper
Replied by lilydipper on topic Re:Evo & Legend in comparison to the V10 & V10S
I retail both THINK and Epic skis. Both the Evo and V10 Sport are great intermediate level skis which will take a paddler a long way into their paddling career. I am continually talking people down from V10 or Legends to the Evo/Sport. The added stability of both these skis will help with the development of a good forward stroke and help you get into rough water paddling. Many people who test the Evo/Sport vs V10/Legend do so on flat water and don't get the full appreciation of the difference in stability which is amplified on rougher water.

Most people find the initial stability of the Evo comforting. The hull is a bit flatter under the bum than the V10 Sport which has a shallow V. The old V10 Sport's bum bucket was humungous. Epic recognized this and has made the bum bucket smaller on the 2010 V10 Sport version. That has made an already good ski even better. Although the V10 Sport feels a bit initially twitchy it has bomber secondary stability and it is great in rough water.

I don't think you can go wrong with either surf ski. Both are very fast. If you are just getting into the sport I would suggest buying either the V10 Sport or Evo and then upgrade 2 or 3 years down the road. You won't benefit from the slightly faster hull speed if you are struggling for balance even a little bit. Remember that surf ski paddlers are very "Tribal" and will usually tell you, with incredible enthusiasm, that the ski they are paddling is the greatest ski ever made. My advice it to test the ski for yourself so you can make up your own mind.
Bp

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  • lilydipper
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14 years 1 week ago #4641 by lilydipper
Replied by lilydipper on topic Re:Evo & Legend in comparison to the V10 & V10S
I retail both THINK and Epic skis. Both the Evo and V10 Sport are great intermediate level skis which will take a paddler a long way into their paddling career. I am continually talking people down from V10 or Legends to the Evo/Sport. The added stability of both these skis will help with the development of a good forward stroke and help you get into rough water paddling. Many people who test the Evo/Sport vs V10/Legend do so on flat water and don't get the full appreciation of the difference in stability which is amplified on rougher water.

Most people find the initial stability of the Evo comforting. The hull is a bit flatter under the bum than the V10 Sport which has a shallow V. The old V10 Sport's bum bucket was humungous. Epic recognized this and has made the bum bucket smaller on the 2010 V10 Sport version. That has made an already good ski even better. Although the V10 Sport feels a bit initially twitchy it has bomber secondary stability and it is great in rough water.

I don't think you can go wrong with either surf ski. Both are very fast. If you are just getting into the sport I would suggest buying either the V10 Sport or Evo and then upgrade 2 or 3 years down the road. You won't benefit from the slightly faster hull speed if you are struggling for balance even a little bit. Remember that surf ski paddlers are very "Tribal" and will usually tell you, with incredible enthusiasm, that the ski they are paddling is the greatest ski ever made. My advice it to test the ski for yourself so you can make up your own mind.
Bp

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13 years 11 months ago #4673 by egger
Has anyone put any science to comparisons of these skis by calculating how much difference in km/hr there is with all other constants being equal - same paddler, distance, conditions etc?

It would be useful to know how much faster in km/hr a particular ski (model and construction) is over another. I know Rapid Ascent published a comprehensive kayak comparison in 2006-07 which included a ski catagory, but I haven't seen anything more recent. While Wesley Echols Comparative Surfski chart is useful, it doesn't take that next step in quantifying speed.

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13 years 11 months ago #4675 by [email protected]
Speed is really difficult to gauge. A couple of years ago we had a go at it: Surfski Shootout

Although this was good fun and yielded some interesting results, there are so many factors that affect one's speed in a particular ski; flat water speed doesn't necessarily translate into speed in choppy - or downwind - conditions.

The best way to check speed in my opinion is to race the ski against your usual markers (in different conditions) but even then, some skis require some time to get used to.

And of course this isn't practical if you want to compare, say, 6 different skis.

Fun to try though. If we were to do it again, I'd choose (given total free choice):

V10
V12
Mako Elite
Synergy (or the new Custom Kayaks ski that's in the works!)
EOS 660
Nelo
Think Uno
Stellar
Green7
Atom

We'd break it into two groups of skis (at least).
We'd think hard about conditions and try to find a way of trying the skis in flat, choppy, downwind conditions and come up with a way of (as far as possible) objectively assessing the skis...

Might even be tempted to do it... if...

The manufacturers sent us the skis and gave them to us to auction - delivery worldwide! The great surfski.info shootout...

We'd get some of the top paddlers to take part...

We'd do it in two countries (maybe more) simultaneously, with teams in Aus and SA (and maybe other places) taking part...

Wouldn't that be cool?

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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13 years 11 months ago #4678 by red_pepper
The best way to compare the skis (and other kayaks) for potential speed performance would be to use a tow tank and develop resistance curves for different weights and across a certain speed range. I would think developing a curve for weights from 100 - 225 lbs, in 25 lb increments, and for a speed range of 3 - 9 mph, would really let you know how one boat compared to another in potential performance (at least in flat water speed).

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13 years 9 months ago #5162 by Cstoff
Hi Superted. Looks like you've got a lot of experience and also knowledge about the Think Evo. I'm about to buy my first surf ski and are currently living in Perth. From what I can tell from ALL the reviews on this wonderful website is that basically the best surfski to buy for entry level is the Think Evo. Do you know where one can buy the think evo and also all it's accessories. I could only find once shop/supplier in Perth so far and they've only got the kayak itself and not the think paddle, etc. Do you think its best sticking to all the accessories for the same brand/product or can one mix and match? Would really appreciate you response. THanks

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13 years 9 months ago #5164 by AR_convert
Cstoff, welcome to the forum :) , excuse me for asking :dry: ..but, how about introducing yourself? Where are you from, what is your paddling background etc ;)

I only ask as the first two posts you have put up (both enquiring about where to get Think products) could appear suspicious to us cynics.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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13 years 9 months ago #5165 by Cstoff
Hi AR. I'm from South Africa and have been rowing/paddling there for about 8 years on flat water. I've been staying in Australia for 2 and a half years but haven't done any paddling for almost 4 years now. Want to make a start again but this time in the ocean as I'm staying on the coast and looking for new adventure. Sorry for being rude before...:-) I've only required about Think because its been doing my head in reading up about each product and so many people has got differt opinions so from I could tell so far the Evo is a good starting point. The V10S also sounds good but too many people complain about the wide seat and that puts me off a bit... Any advise AR?

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13 years 9 months ago - 13 years 9 months ago #5166 by AR_convert
In that case welcome to the land downunder :)

Mate, I wouldnt rush out and buy a Think Evo, I was in a V10 Sport 5 months ago, and yes the older model had a wide bucket, but that was easily dealt with using the padding pockets from Epic. The new V10 Sport has a narrower bucket. But really, you could throw a blanket over the V10 sport, Fenn XT and Think Evo for those people learning the ocean paddling side of things, and those 3 boats seem to have really good resale value.

A mate has been trying to buy one of those for the past few months here in WA and hasnt been able to find one, they sell that quickly when they are available.

So then it comes back to the "New" cost, from my experience a few months ago looking at buying a V12, V10L, Think Legend, the Epic boats were able to be bought cheaper (they were selling them much cheaper than RRP/website listed prices), so it's worth asking those that deal in them.

Another thing that may vary between the boats, I took a set of scales with me to the shops I visited and found big variances from quoted weights. I wont go into what I found as I have done on my boat hunting threads and it could read as favourtism here, but my advice is to weigh each boat you are interested in, you may be suprised at the difference.

I only know of Mainpeak selling the Think boats, otherwise Go Paddlesports in Osborne Park was where I got a good deal on my Epic.

The other consideration is Perth is repairs. I had my boat run into in the surf by accident and damaged. I was able to get it fixed to a very high standard (looks like new) through a relative of the owner of Epic Kayaks (SAfrican who lives here. I know we dont set out to damage our boats, but it is peace of mind for me knowing that he is there should I need him again. While he does fix other boats he gives Epic boats priority and carries the right colours/stickers etc.

Best wishes with whatever you choose, it's a good thing when people dont buy a Fenn or Epic, as it gives the up and comers (of which there are many) hope of growing thier market share and inspires product refinement and evolution.

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 13 years 9 months ago by AR_convert.

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