Pushing with both feet at the same time?

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6 years 6 months ago - 6 years 6 months ago #29345 by LakeMan
I'm a bit confused on the correct way to use leg drive. I've read many posts on this forum and thought I understood what to do but after watching this video twice I'm not so sure.



Oscar says some things at 46:00 and 57:45 about leg drive that I don't understand. He states that when you press on the footpad while pulling the paddle back, your bum should automatically slide forward in the bucket. Then he states you're not supposed to pull on your opposite foot strap while driving with the other leg - you should be pressing down, just with less force. And this is supposed to bring your bum off the back of the seat.
Now I'm not a physics major but that doesn't seem possible. I have a high hump in my Uno Max and have never once slid forward in the bucket. (Maybe water in other parts of the world is thicker then in the USA.)

Am I missing something here?

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill
Last edit: 6 years 6 months ago by LakeMan. Reason: Incomplete

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6 years 6 months ago #29346 by AR_convert
Hmm, also not sure about that statement but then the question would be why do sprint boats have "Pull Bars"?

Always looking for the next boat :)

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6 years 6 months ago - 6 years 6 months ago #29348 by Jef58
Replied by Jef58 on topic Pushing on both footpads?
My thought is there are (usually) no backs on a sprint boat to support against. So you have to use the extended leg pushing with the other pulling to counteract and help support the torso. Similar to cycling when clipped in the pedals, driving with one and pulling with the other. Main difference being no rotating or rocking while pedaling but the core helps to support that motion.

It sounds like Oscar is using the core to counteract the paddle force more than the seat back, so you are forcing yourself forward while extending the leg... That is my take and how I understand it.

I'm not totally convinced that you need to paddle a ski with the the excessive leg drive like a sprint boat. You do need to leg drive and rotate, but it can be more subtle. It looks like certain ski designs are tailored more for the emphasis on leg drive than others.
Last edit: 6 years 6 months ago by Jef58.

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6 years 6 months ago #29349 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Pushing on both footpads?
Sounds like he is trying to correct to help people understand that leg drive is to not only apply power, but also counter the pull of the paddle with a push of the foot. Also, he mentioned something that I have been particularly working on lately. I don't pull with the opposite side footplate strap anymore. Instead, I concentrate on relaxing that leg and bringing the knee up to promote better/easier rotation. It helps keep me more centered in the ski and sets up for a much better catch.

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6 years 6 months ago #29350 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Pushing on both footpads?
It`s all about science!
Push on the back of the seat and what is the direction of the load, backwards? Not sure that is the direction I want to go. However push on the foot plate (without pushing back on the seat), now that is the direction I want to go.
Your feet are effectively the only drive force connecting you to the ski, the paddle is the external force that tranfers to the foot plate through your whole body ending at your feet, pushing the ski forward.

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6 years 6 months ago #29351 by LakeMan
Replied by LakeMan on topic Pushing on both footpads?
That may work great on dry land but in the water I don't think so. I can sit in my ski all day in the water pushing on the footpads and I'll go nowhere. Once I engage the paddle in the water then I start to move. Using my core as the main motor to power the paddle should be all that matters whether I pull or push on the opposite footpad. I can't see pushing on both pads and NOT using the back of the bucket to brace the movement. No matter how vigorous I paddle my bum never slides forward in the seat.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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6 years 6 months ago #29353 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Pushing on both footpads?
Clearly you are way more experienced than me? Not sure why you asked the question if you are going to do what you want anyway. I think you need to look at Newton`s laws of physics.
I never push on the back of my seat.

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6 years 6 months ago #29354 by AR_convert
Okay so playing the ball and not the man :dry:

Upon reflection through the stroke you will indeed be pushing hard on the footplate with the blade buried.

I tend to think it's the in setup for the next stroke when the blade has left the water where I would be using the footstrap to pull and get more rotation prior to the next catch.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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6 years 6 months ago #29355 by LakeMan
I'm not arguing with you Ranga. But I don't see how one can press with both legs and not slide back in the seat no matter how hard the paddle grabs the water. I can see it in a canoe due to the sitting position but not in my ski. I get good leg drive while I pull/brace with the opposite leg, yet I still sit to the back of the seat. I've tried many different positions for the footpads and I still move back in the bucket.
I'm not discounting anyone's ideas, I just want to understand.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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6 years 6 months ago #29356 by insalt
He is not meaning push with both legs, he means don't pull back with the opposite one- keep it planted.
Most people can grasp the concept that the paddle on catch is anchored in the water, and you pull the boat past the paddle with core rotation being the power source.
Same with leg drive. The paddle is anchored in the water and you are pushing the boat past the paddle. As Ranga said the foot plant is the only fixed point during a paddle stroke. Everything else is moving including your backside on the seat. So all of that power from the pull, core rotation and leg drive is transmitted to the boat through the foot board. Or it should be anyway.
Pulling back on the opposite side will not directly make the boat go faster although many may argue that indirectly it does as it can assist rotation.

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6 years 6 months ago #29361 by LakeMan
Thank you Insalt. I paddled 20k (12 miles) today in high wind and terrible chop trying everything within me to keep my bum off the back of the bucket, planting the paddle to drive myself forward but I couldn't do it. My leg drive seems good. I can feel my core moving me forward as the main engine. It could be that the Think Uno Max has such a deep bucket and a steep incline to the summit of the hump that my bum won't move forward because it has to move upwards. I really don't know. I'd have to try a different ski but in my area I've never seen one.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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6 years 6 months ago #29363 by insalt
Try pushing your foot board forward a notch or two. Sit in the boat in the fully rotated position. One leg straight as you can get it and the other bent. You shouldn't be pushing hard into the back of the bucket. If you are lengthen a bit more.

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6 years 6 months ago - 6 years 6 months ago #29364 by feeny
Haha, I have to watch this again :-) Glad you found this, I had no idea it was even being filmed.

See, that's me in front of the camera in the white top/hat along with my better half beside me.

Since then, I've been practicing Oscar's drills using both his notes (he handed some out at the end) and my notes for the past few weeks, including the leg drive drill.

Noting that I haven't watched this again yet, the way I understood it is that as I leg drive I am trying to pull myself out of the seat via the paddle - and the bit that actually does move in the seat seems to be the opposite butt cheek to the driving one.

This is what Oscar's drill notes on the leg drive drill say:

Leg Drive Drill (one sided drill with recovery brace)
5-10 strokes on one side, then the other side. Rotate hip forward fully while recovering bracing, knee must rise, then drive knee down, transferring force into paddle blade, trying to pull your whole body forward off the seat.

OK, off to watch the thing again. Great that it's up!!
Last edit: 6 years 6 months ago by feeny.

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6 years 6 months ago #29368 by LakeMan
Hey Feeny, thanks for the advice. I spent hours adjusting the foot pads but it didn't change anything. The hump is just too high. I guess it's not a big deal because I seem to scoot across the water just fine, I'm comfortable and I don't hurt when I'm done working out. I want the perfect technique but then again I'm not planning on any competition since I live where there isn't much offered.
I love the ski and the workout it gives me with the added plus that no one I know asks to borrow it because no one I know will fit in it.
Thanks for everyone's help.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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6 years 6 months ago #29388 by feeny
Cheers LM.
One thing I will say about the various sessions at Mauritius is that most of the top paddlers contradicted eachother in one way or another. About the only thing they had in common was a goal of "being efficient on the water", then they all went about this with differences.

Dawid Mocke explained that for him a "75% 'dirty' stroke is absolutely more than good enough, especially when out in the runs" -- and his technique is very different to Oscar's !

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6 years 6 months ago #29390 by LakeMan
Thank you Feeny. I have noticed in all my research that there are those with differing opinions. I think body type and obviously the ski design plays a big part. For instance I am not flexible. Even as a child I could not sit on the ground with my legs straight and touch my feet. I was not designed that way. I enjoy the ski and the workout it gives me so I'm extremely pleased with paddling it.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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