Leash safty ishue.

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10 years 9 months ago #18734 by Newbflat
Leash safty ishue. was created by Newbflat
So I was practicing reentering my new V10 the other day and ran into a potential leash safty ishue. I made a leash for myself out of 1/2"/13mm tubular nylon webbing with an internal bungie and snap shackles at both ends. It's one meter in length and stretches to two. On the end that attaches to me I put a large marble sized ball on a string to quickly if needed actuate the release on the snap shackle. It's a nice simple and strong system, but there is a flaw in the system. I use this leash with a waste belt and there in lies the problem. When I was pulling my self on the boat using a side saddle mount, the ball on the snap shackle release would catch between me and the ski and as i pulled myself up I would unintentualy pull it and release the shackle. This happened twice in a row. So, a word of warning to anyone with a handy ball release or big knot on a snap shackle. Make SURE it can't get cought between you and some part of the boat and release. I have removed the ball and just have a string but I'm now thinking that might even be an issue.

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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10 years 8 months ago #18738 by Bill L
Replied by Bill L on topic Leash safty ishue.
Good observation.

I attach my body leash to my pfd at the waist (a heavy duty piece of web and ring sewn directly to the bottom center of the pfd); the pfd waist is probably in a higher position than a seperate waist belt. In this position, I think it lessens the chance that it will get caught on something.

I had been toying with the idea of adding a ball on the snap shackle release, but after reading about your experiences, I will no longer consider that. I use a small diameter braided cord that extends maybe 2 inches from the shackle, just enough to get a grip on it. Been using it this way for a while with lots of remounts; so far, no issues.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Bill L

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10 years 8 months ago #18741 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Leash safty ishue.
I use to use a whitewater PFD with a swimmers belt on it. I liked the location and it was a really solid attachment point with the foam of the PFD under it acting as cushioning. Unfortunately the PFD wasn't as comfortable for paddling with a wing as I would have liked. Now i use a Think PFD. I like the Think PFD for the most part but there is no attachment point strong enough for a ski leash. The fabric is also fairly light and wouldn't trust sewing anything to it. I would love it if my think PFD had a belt of webbing around say the lower third of the jacket with a ring to clip into or some form of super solid attachment point.

Rant:
I really don't understand why it has taken so long for manufactures to embrace safety. With the growing market and spread of skis into colder water environments it seems like more than a smart thing to do . Not sure what there waiting for..... A lawsuit? The lack of any attachment point on the bow of my new V10 is very annoying. There are a lot of skis with no way to tow them back to a paddler if lost for what ever reason ( like one of the ridiculously funky leashes out there braking). They don't even have to put anything there but a small hole. Let the owner decide what they want to do with it. I'm also suspicious of the new leash attachment point in my V10.... But that's another story. Bla, bla bla....

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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10 years 8 months ago #18746 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Leash safty ishue.
Guys, can you run me through why you would attach a leash to your body, rather than use a leg leash? I'm curious to the thinking here. Thanks.



Newbflat, rants are good, they can be a huge relief! Regarding your requests, at Think, we've had a huge focus on safety from very early. We were the first to bring out handles (which many ridiculed us for and laughed at the time) and a leash anchor point as standard. In addition to our internal kevlar seams, and bright yellow and orange colours and stripes, we've tried to make things as safe as possible. This has been carried on with items like our high vis PFD and paddling caps. It's probably a positive that other brands are following suit, and I do hope it's a trend which continues. No one wants a lawsuit, or to hear of anyone coming to a bad end.

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10 years 8 months ago #18756 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Leash safty ishue.
I prefer to attach the leash to the PFD front as well. I find it less cumbersome and noticable while reentering (particularly when cowboy reentering, which I prefer) - and while paddling, you have less cord and stuff between the legs and by the feet. Thirdly, one less item to put on before paddling, as I always use my PDF

So would prefer a PFD with a strong attachment point at the bottom of the PDF front, if I could make a suggestion

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10 years 8 months ago #18757 by sAsLEX
Replied by sAsLEX on topic Leash safty ishue.

Stew wrote: Guys, can you run me through why you would attach a leash to your body, rather than use a leg leash? I'm curious to the thinking here. Thanks.


I have my paddle to my PFD. That way if I come off in the surf zone and am not attached to the boat then I don't loose my paddle as well. Also I find is easier re-mounting without having to worry about the paddle floating away, I know you are meant to remount holding on to the paddle but I found it easier just to jump on then grab the paddle with the leash.

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10 years 8 months ago #18760 by Bill L
Replied by Bill L on topic Leash safty ishue.
"Guys, can you run me through why you would attach a leash to your body, rather than use a leg leash? I'm curious to the thinking here. Thanks.”

I would turn the question around and ask why would you want it attached to your leg? If I got whacked by a big wave and the boat went broadside and starting yanking me I would rather have it pulling on my body than pulling on my leg, as I suspect injury to the leg would be more likely.

And for the body attachment point, as I always wear a pfd, the leash is always with me.

I do understand that many PFDs might not support a leash attachment; especially those made for racing which are necessarily tuned to save weight and keep you cool and so may not be robust enough for an attachment point. Still, there a lot of good strong “low profile” pfds out there that will keep you cool and can be fairly easily modified to attach a leash.

Still, I think attaching oneself to the ski is the most important thing, especially when out in the big stuff on the ocean, so, it may be mostly just personal preference in the end.

Bill L

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10 years 8 months ago #18762 by steveb
Replied by steveb on topic Leash safty ishue.
No rant. Simple bow attachment point using a carbon shaft bedded in thickened epoxy. With a grab loop, it provides a simple towing solution for getting a wayward ski back to it's owner on the water. Wear you PFD. Use a boat leash.
Attachments:

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10 years 8 months ago #18765 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Leash safty ishue.
For myself there are a number of reasons why I like my leach attached to the PFD. Easer access to release the shackle when it's on my torso rather than below my knee, easer to reattach if uncliped, easer to untangle from, tidier cockpit, would prefer a strong pull on my PFD spreading the load rather than sharp pull on small part of me like my leg. The leg never seemed very secure to me. It's just another option... The more the better. Why is the leg any better?

I make my own leash because I don't trust the commercial available coil leaches I have seen. They just seem cheap, not very strong, poorly stitched in critical places and considering the number I have heard about braking or failing in some way, I chose to make something that won't. I also hate it when coils get tangled. My leash might be a bit longer but it won't tangle with itself. I also don't trust Velcro for such a critical attachment. It doesn't take Velcro very long to lose much of its strength especially in a marine environment.

Think has done a very good job with there skis. Nice sleek handles at both ends and a leash attachment point are great. But I wish they (all skis not just Think) also had another other attachment point at the front of the cockpit on the deck for running a bow line/grab line. And the bungie attachment points on the deck behind the cockpit should be super strong as well. I realize you can use the bungie attachment points inside the forward are part of the cockpit but on some boats these don't look particularly solid as bow line attachment points.

I might end up drilling a hole in my bow and putting in a sleeve, but my point is that I shouldn't have to do that. It should come that way, or with a handle or something. If I drill a hole in my bow do I void my warrantee?

Both the sea kayak and whitewater world have come a long way in terms of on the water safety. Some maybe have gone a bit overboard at times (sea kayaks). But a lot of the safety legwork has been done and the ability to have solid bow and stern lines doesn't seem like to much to ask for. Or that the leashes and associated gear/ attachments be well engendered and super reliable not seemingly leftovers from another sport. .. Just seems smart to me.

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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10 years 8 months ago #18851 by Stew
Replied by Stew on topic Leash safty ishue.
Thanks for some of the feed back on the leash methods guys, we'll look into these. The body leash method is interesting, but I would have concerns about being tied to the ski that way in the event of a good thrashing. But certainly some interesting opinions for us to work with.

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10 years 8 months ago #18855 by [email protected]
Just my 2c.

I used to use an ankle leash, but after having my knee wrenched in surf, I opted for body leash instead, which I use whenever I'm going out in any wind at all, especially with a light boat.

So... I use a Mocke leash with a belt.

I always unfasten the clip when coming into surf.

I also use a paddle leash.

I've come out a number of times in big downwind conditions and, touch wood, I've never tangled the two leashes to any great extent. On occasion I've had to focus on taking the time to separate the leashes, but it's never been a big deal.

I like the paddle leash because it means that if I need to work on the boat, or on someone else's boat, I can let the paddle go and not lose it.

I also recognise that neither leash is a silver bullet - I once broke a leash when hit by a big wave, and lost the boat even though my paddle was leashed to it.

But having both leashes certainly radically reduces the potential for losing the boat.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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10 years 8 months ago #18858 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Leash safty ishue.
Interesting to read that so many have opted to attach the leash to the PDF or body belt.

In my mind a separate belt represents an additional risk factor compared if the alternative is a PDF with an appropriately strong attachment point. Belt can be
• forgotten at home (I know a PDF can be forgotten as well but maybe less likely)
• be hidden behind PFD/clothing,
• more prone to come off/ break than a PDF which has a larger area to spread the load.

So I hope Stew/Think/Hiko and or other PDF brands come around quickly with a PDF solution. I would certainly buy one.

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10 years 8 months ago #18859 by [email protected]

So I hope Stew/Think/Hiko and or other PDF brands come around quickly with a PDF solution. I would certainly buy one.


I agree. The belt is a pain; I'd much rather have a proper webbing harness built into the PFD. As you say, stronger, less likely to result in injury!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #18865 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Leash safty ishue.
IMO the commercial coiled leg rope that can be attached to your PFD should be quite adequate. Like any piece of equipment it has to be
regularly inspected for nicks and wear, and retired when appropriate. I am considered a local big wave surfer and am often the only one out on some of the biggest days. I have rarely had a leash fail. When they do it's obvious it should have been long since replaced.
If you wear a leash in the surf zone and eat it on a big wave something(s) is definitely going to break. Maybe not if attached to the bow. As Rob suggested, a leash is not a good idea in the impact zone. Never had a problem with coiled leg leash in deep water in very rough conditions. Agree, seems to work better attached to PFD.
Another way to put a small hole in the bow is to simply drill an appropriate sized hole then fill it with thickened epoxy. (helps to turn ski upside down or stand on end.) Then simply drill a smaller diameter hole through hardened epoxy. Personally I'd chose this method over carbon tube. Already done it on my three boats and works fine.
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by Fath2o.

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #18886 by nell
Replied by nell on topic Leash safty ishue.
For those that use both a body and a paddle leash, did you guys see this system? Click on the link below, then on "blog" on the horizontal menu, then scroll way down to "Billy B's Ultimate leash system."


www.tcsurfski.com/#!blog/cxpq

Erik
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by nell. Reason: made it more clear
The following user(s) said Thank You: Watto

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #18888 by Kocho
Replied by Kocho on topic Leash safty ishue.
Nell, this is a nice setup EXCEPT you have no quick release. That could be quite a problem if you must let go quickly for some reason. On a lake/ocean open water, probably you would never have to. Near shore or on a river, not being able to do that can kill you. So, the end near you should have some sort of quick release. Either hook it up to a tow belt or a rescue PFD belt with quick release. Or use a quick release carabiner.

Ot course, the system would work even better if the line is attached to a perimeter line running from the bow of the ski to the cockpit. I think a French paddler has posted here and on his blog about this. This lets your ski rear end swing out away from you in big waves and the waves and wind will just wash over it without much pull. If the ski is perpendicular to the wind and parallel to the waves (as would be the case with attachment points near the seat or feet), the ski will pull much harder. This can lead to injury, being pulled farther away than desired, and breakage of the leash or boat or you. You also cannot effectively tow a ski if the attachment point is in the middle.

I don't paddle in huge conditions, but I find quite comforting the fact that my ankle leash (brand name, for a surf board) has a quick release feature. It is a Velcro flap around the ankle and I feel it would never open accidentally, but is easy to take off with one hand. It also has rotating elements on both ends, so it does not get twisted much. Granted, at about 6-7 feet long I have to take care to stuff it back in the cockpit or it would drag in the water. A coiled version would be better, but that one works for me. The material of the leash is strong but stretchable, so it has a nice give to it, which both minimizes chances of injury or equipment failure due to a strong sudden pull by a wave. I have used this leash in my attempts to learn to surf a big SUP and expected it to fail as I had to pull rather hard on it in the beach break. But it held and never caused me discomfort. Cost is about $15 in surf shops.
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by Kocho.

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