Chafing

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10 years 10 months ago #17490 by M.v.E.
Chafing was created by M.v.E.
lately I have problems with chafing on my lower back when paddling in my Stellar SR. When I started with surfski paddling 2 years ago I had no problems but now I am working more with my legs and I am rotating more and that seems to create a lot of pressure and rubbing just above my butt where I am pressing against the back of the bucket. My neoprene shorts have no potruding seams so I am wondering what causes the soreness ?
I tried to pad the back of the seat with foam but it did´nt really help. Has someone had similar problems ? I would be grateful for any suggestions.

Michael

Current Ski: Nelo 550 L
Previous Skis: Stellar SR 1. Gen. / Stellar SEI 1. Gen. / Stellar SR 2. Gen.

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10 years 10 months ago - 10 years 10 months ago #17491 by Kayaker Greg
Replied by Kayaker Greg on topic Re: Chafing
I've had this problem on every kayak and ski I've owned, your seat padding needs to be made in a way that the part that is rubbing, isn't. Also perhaps move your footplate slightly forward so that you are not pressing back against the back of the seat so hard. Rather than pushing against the back of the seat try to transfer the movement to your offside leg, buttock and footplate, force against the back of the seat achieves nothing.

Here are some pics of various seats I've made, some for Stellar skis.

www.facebook.com/kayaker.greg/media_set?...0002425151844&type=3

I've also found that what I wear underneath my paddle shorts can make a difference, wearing something slippery like lycra or elastaine rather than cotton can help, perhaps some old bicycle shorts that are high enough where the rubbing occurs or some similar knickers I find these work well under paddling shorts jockeynz.co.nz/catalogue.asp?gender=m&ca...id=250&productid=760
also I sit on a plastic bag to help slipperiness.
Last edit: 10 years 10 months ago by Kayaker Greg.

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10 years 10 months ago #17493 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Re: Chafing
MvE - my understanding (I'm sure others will chime in) is that proper leg drive should not push you into the back of the seat at all. If your legs are shoving you backwards then it is wasted effort and is not propelling you forward. Leg drive should cause rotation such that the paddle side hip moves back and the other side moves forward. Sounds like you have the leg extension part of the leg movement down. Try to focus on pulling with the non drive side foot in the foot strap. Helps to have the strap fairly tight. Good luck with it!

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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10 years 10 months ago #17495 by Kocho
Replied by Kocho on topic Re: Chafing
Second that. Rotate "in place". But if the cockpit is making some contact with your back nevertheless, perhaps you can pad the seat in such a way that the slope increases and places yu further forward?

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10 years 10 months ago #17496 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Re: Chafing
Keep it simple. Try rubbing some vaseline on the affected area before you paddle. Works well for me.

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10 years 10 months ago #17497 by lost john
Replied by lost john on topic Re: Chafing
I had this problem all the time in the past, moreso in the think evo due to its steep back seat.
I found that bodyglide or vaseline is not a solution. I did pad the evo seat so it had a shape more like the later Legend seat (basically, more slanted), which helped. But the real answer I believe is to think of pushing the boat forward with your drive foot, NOT pushing to get your backside squished against the back of the seat. Thinking that helps me get the "rotation in place" some other posters are referring to. Note I'm not criticising the evo design, just my technique. Oh yeah , and wearing a rash guard tucked in your waistline helps too- but not with efficiency.

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10 years 10 months ago #17498 by grasshopper
Replied by grasshopper on topic Re: Chafing
I had the same problem when I started to concentrate on leg drive as well and found the issue was caused by poor posture.

If I maintain good posture with chest out back straight then the only part of me touching the back of the seat is my buttocks.

I initially padded the back of the seat but no longer needed the padding after the posture improvements.

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10 years 10 months ago #17500 by M.v.E.
Replied by M.v.E. on topic Re: Chafing
Thank you all for your feedback. So it seems that my problem is caused to some extend by wrong technique. I will try to improve it the next time on the water. Thanks again for your tips.

Michael

Current Ski: Nelo 550 L
Previous Skis: Stellar SR 1. Gen. / Stellar SEI 1. Gen. / Stellar SR 2. Gen.

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10 years 10 months ago #17501 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Re: Chafing
I had this issue on my SR as well. Once with swimming trunks on i came back from a long paddle with nasty abrasions on my back that took weeks to heal. Moving my foot board up 1/2 inch helped as well as sitting up straight and ditching the trunks for NRS HydroSkin bottoms. Definitely push/pull with your feet and don't drive yourself into the back of the bucket. No issues since, even on long paddles.

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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10 years 10 months ago #17502 by Kocho
Replied by Kocho on topic Re: Chafing
While the OP's problem seems to be due to the reasons explained above, it is true that inappropriate clothing can indeed cause quite a problem - a seam in the wrong spot or poor waist tightening system on the pants can rub you raw over the course of an hour or so even if it feels OK on shorter outings (have had that happen often to me...).

I usually wear thin tight stretchy underpants and lightweight shorts over them - that seems to facilitate slippage between the underwear (sticks to me) and the outerwear(sticks to the boat or slides about during rotation).

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10 years 10 months ago #17503 by gbowd3
Replied by gbowd3 on topic Re: Chafing
OK, to get maximum power on the blade, you need to drive your legs hard. This WILL push you into the back of the seat. Drive is incredibly important in starts and when exploding onto runs.
I agree with the seams causing rub, so try to find shorts with seams at the side, not at the back. Difficult, but they ARE out there. I
I put a 10 mm (half inch) foam seat in and up the back of the seat a little, then carefully sanded out a notch in the back so my tail bone could sit in the notch and float free. The rest of my behind is contacting the seat but not the part that rubs.
If you are doing enough paddling you will chafe somewhere/sometime, I have also, at times, when desperate to keep paddling, stuck a large Elastoplast adhesive bandage with the hygienic strip, over the chafe wound, (probably 10 cm x 5cm). This works, and I have, at times just left it on for days to save changing it between am and pm sessions. You just get used to it under your clothing. Extreme, I know! I've used this on my buttocks, but not tail bone?? The notch in seat will work though.

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10 years 10 months ago - 10 years 10 months ago #17504 by Kayaker Greg
Replied by Kayaker Greg on topic Re: Chafing
Disagree. The force through your foot plate and leg should pass through your core, through your arm and down your paddle into the water. Forcing your leg and butt into the back of the seat achieves nothing. Even though you are pulling slightly against the foot strap on the off side contracting the muscles to move your off side hip slightly forward to facilitate rotation there is also pressure/force going into the off side foot plate through the heel. Imagine your paddle as a post in the water and push against it and the pressure is on your foot plate, not the back of the seat.

So while "you" might be pushing against the back of the seat with your legs, you are wasting power that is better spent going into the blade, the foot plate and driving the boat forward.
Last edit: 10 years 10 months ago by Kayaker Greg.

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10 years 10 months ago #17505 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Re: Chafing
Yes Kayaker Greg is 100% correct, you should be rotating on your butt freely, not jammed up against the back of the seat, you CANNOT rotate like that!

Do some tests and see if you can try and not touch the back of the seat whilst paddling.

That is why you have a foot strap, you have to push AND pull, without the strap this is not possible. How people paddle without one is beyond me, well lets say they are not paddling properly!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kayaker Greg

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10 years 10 months ago #17509 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Re: Chafing
gbowd3... No one gets more drive and exceleration out of there boat than a well trained sprint kayaker. If you have ever been in or looked at there boats then you know there is no back to the seat or place to suport your back. All of there drive comes from the push pull action of the feet. If your driving yourself into the back of the bucket of your ski to accelerate, your doing it wrong. And a sprint boat plus... there is no chafing in a sprint boat, Nothing to chafe on.

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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10 years 10 months ago #17511 by owenw
Replied by owenw on topic Re: Chafing
Both my wife and I each paddle a Stellar SR and we both had problems with the shape of the bucket rubbing against the lower back/upper bum/tailbone area. A simple "Kani" pad fixed it for me, but with Anne it required a real work of closed cell foam art, as she would rub her coccyx area raw and bleeding. (It's not that she doesn't know how to paddle as she is a very handy marathon distance racing paddler in her Sladecraft Flash kayak with a K1 seat and has no "tailbone" issues in it.)
I reckon that it could be a design feature by Stellar as the SR is just so stable and easy to paddle, the uncomfortable seat might be just to keep you awake :(

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself

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10 years 10 months ago #17512 by TaffyMick
Replied by TaffyMick on topic Re: Chafing
Back in my surf lifesaving days we used to "lock" ourselves into the ski with your backside hard into the back of the bucket. Rotation was still possible by the use of your speedos (slippery little suckers). A bit of surfboard wax on the bottom of the bucket stopped you sliding around too much. Now punching through a 2-3 metre wave face on a spec surf ski requires a totally different paddling style and application thereof, to a standard surf/ocean ski.

Problem I had getting back into skis in the last couple of years (not including the extra 25kg of weight and 25 extra years! :whistle: )was having to re-learn my paddling technique and drop some of the habits of my previous ski incarnation. This manifested itself in the same chaffing problems discussed previously.

While I still "lock" myself in (essential for stability) I now have the foot board adjusted so that one leg at a time only has full contact with the base of the board which forces correct drive utilising the push/pull technique with the foot strap, which also results in efficient and effective rotation. Noticed very quickly that the incidences of chaffing or rubbing decreased dramatically. On longer paddles it did begin to become a problem as I got "lazier" in my stroke and technique

Going to try out a couple of seat pad variations for the longer paddles on both my boats. But for the shorter ones I will be concentrating on correct technique to eliminate chaffing.

My two-bobs worth :)

Stellar SEI, Fenn Bluefin S, Sladecraft Comet Long Rec & Vajda K1

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10 years 10 months ago - 10 years 10 months ago #17517 by gbowd3
Replied by gbowd3 on topic Re: Chafing
Newbflat, Thankyou, I AM a well trained sprint kayaker, having won National and state medals and as such, spend much time in them.
If you are not driving on your heels you are missing a lot of drive. It helps connect you to your kayak to become 'one' with it and makes the power on the blade greater, as it's then a whole body movement, not an upper body move only. This is especially helpful in the ocean in tricky conditions, to be stable in your ski.
Have a close look at any You Tube clip of a kayak race ( try the K2 200m final London Olympics) and appreciate the up and down movement of the knees resulting from the drive on the heels. Many seemingly upper body sports are really generating power from the legs eg rowing, golf, baseball batting and pitching etc. Same with what we do.
And the back of the seat rim in my kayak constantly chafes me !
Last edit: 10 years 10 months ago by gbowd3. Reason: Un finished

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10 years 10 months ago - 10 years 10 months ago #17521 by Kayaker Greg
Replied by Kayaker Greg on topic Re: Chafing
No one is saying that you don't drive with your legs, but the point is that leg drive goes into driving the boat forward from the leverage on the paddle, your legs moving up and down help with your rotation within your seat, there are power circles that go from your legs through your core and upper torso, through your shoulder and down your arm and down your paddle and into the water and back again from your paddle, up your arm and shoulder, down your upper torso and core and into butt (forward not back) and your legs. This is why its so important to have a strong and stable core so this power is not wasted.
Any force that drives you back into your seat is wasted power and its worth thinking about your technique and harnessing this power instead of wasting it.

Yes, chafing can still be a problem as it only takes a little contact to create chafing with the wrong materials with the constant contact, but your first post stated that your leg drive pushes you into the back of the seat, which is what we disagree about. It might for you, but it doesn't need to and shouldn't.

Congratulations on winning National and State medals and the like with your technique despite this, perhaps you could be even better with a little more available power.
Last edit: 10 years 10 months ago by Kayaker Greg.

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10 years 10 months ago #17523 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Re: Chafing

gbowd3 wrote: And the back of the seat rim in my kayak constantly chafes me !


Sounds like you need a larger or swivel seat.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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10 years 10 months ago #17534 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Re: Chafing
I'll attempt to lighten the mood here by admitting that the only place I chafe while paddling is in the "intergluteal cleft". The better I rotate the worse it gets. A dab of Vaseline before I get on the water works wonders to prevent this, but obviously leads to all sorts of gratuitous jokes from my paddling partners. There you go guys. Have fun with that one.

Current Skis: Epic v10 g3, NK 670 double, NK exrcize, Kai Wa’a Vega, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X
Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Nelo 550 g2, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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