V12, and another leaking cover story.

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13 years 7 months ago #5432 by candela
Like others who have commented on Epic build quality I now have a similar problem with my 5 week old V12 Performance.

The problem seems to be a leaking rudder cover which I’m astounded that this is even possible on a ski of this value. The cover seems to be solid and tight but every time I go out and ride the waves (90% of the time) when I get back and open the cover it’s full of water. No water seems to make it into the hull of the ski thank god!

I thought of returning the ski to the place of purchases and telling them it’s not good enough and then waiting god knows how long to get it fixed, when like mentioned in another post about warrantee “all I want to do is paddle!” or fix it myself which I’m 100% confident in doing once I know the right way to do it.

Funny thing is the first time I paddled it at my local on the Gold Coast a guy paddling on a V10 came up and told me to expect the rudder cover to leak in the near future, I shrugged it off and put the comment down to his ski being quiet old. Guess I was wrong.

I bought some Selleys Glass silicone sealant which I thought I’d run around the edge of the cover since it seems to be solidly attached to the ski and I’d like to avoid removing it if possible. I chose this sealant because it’s clear, 100% silicone and UV resistant.

Any suggestions or advice on what to do or not to do, or whether that’s the right type of sealant to use on a ski?


Thanks
Mart

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13 years 7 months ago #5434 by mckengmsurfski
So do you think its leaking around the plastic collar portion of the cover that is actually attached to the ski? Or do you think its leaking through the removable top of the cover that you screw and unscrew? If so, why do you think its one versus the other? If you're not sure, I'd try and figure out where its actually leaking from first I guess. If its not leaking around the collar I'm not sure I'd be too worried and I'm not sure there's much you can do. If it is leaking from around the collar I suppose you could try and seal it (I'm assuming that's where you're talking about trying to re-seal it?). I paddle a newer V12 as well and though mine is never full of water, there is a nice bit in there after each paddle I do in conditions. I've always assumed its the removable lid that is leaking and not really worried about it. I just always remember to remove it and rinse it out when I clean the ski after a paddle. The ski is under warranty and I guess I could have it looked at, but it never really bothered me b/c it reminds me to check the rudder attachments between paddles, and, like you, its not leaking into the hull. If you're in Australia I read that Epic doesn't warranty the ski, so I'm not sure how that works for you guys? I've owned 4 different skis from 4 different manufacturers and there's been some little issue with every one of them, so when there seemed to be a bit of leaking from the rudder cover, I just sort of took it as par for the course.

Mark

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #5436 by Rightarmbad
Try a different screw cover, there seems to be quite a bit of variability in sizes.
Easy to do if you know someone else with a cover that doesn't leak. Just swap and see what happens.

Is the top cover threads in good nic?
Sometimes they have been cross threaded by people with no mechanical sympathy.
Makes it hard to put them on straight again and leaves a path for water to get past the threads.

Good news :unsure: is that many epic covers including the surround have become detached and lost at sea.
Epic Australia usually has them in stock.
Only about $25 I think.
They know about the problem, hell, everybody knows about the problem, so it should be a nobrainer for them to send out a new assembly and have your seller silastic it in place.

Or it may just need the current one lifting and resilasticing back in place.

Let us know how your warranty negotiations go B) , we are all interested to see Epic's response.
All of us, all over the place, everywhere, hint, hint Epic.
Your service is on public show. Do us proud.

We would all like to see a post in a weeks time detailing how they have fixed it for you with the only down time being what it takes to drop in to your local and have it repaired after your last paddle, so as to be able to paddle the next day after an overnight cure.

If there is genuine backup there, you should not miss any water time.

Let the games begin........



And I really would chase this up, because the water will wick salt down the steering cables and gum up not only the chord, but the tubes that guide it as well.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by Rightarmbad. Reason: added a bit to the end

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13 years 7 months ago #5437 by Rightarmbad

If you're in Australia I read that Epic doesn't warranty the ski, so I'm not sure how that works for you guys?


Nup, that is simply illegal.
They can bluff all they like, but they have a legal obligation to repair/ replace/ refund any item that does not meet the expectations of 'fit for purpose'.

I believe that the entire ski population consider that a leaking steering housing that may compromise the function of the steering by salt encrustation, is not 'fit for purpose'.

They haven't got a leg to stand on.

This is a warranty problem. No doubt about it.
It is also quite feasable to be repaired in a timely manner.
If it cannot be ascertained by inspection whether is the screw cover or the body fitting, then a company with good backup would simply replace both.
The worst you should be subjected too, would be to lift the cover, reglue it to see if that works, if it doesn't then a full replacement of the cover.

Only take half an hour each time.

Now legally, the seller will have recourse to be compensated for his time to perform the repair, so it would be wiser for Epic to simply send out a new assembly, have it fitted once and save labour.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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13 years 7 months ago #5439 by mckengmsurfski
This is the second time on this site i've been told to stop reading my warranties and just lawyer up. Its all very American of you guys....

Mark...USA.

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #5440 by candela
I’m going to do some further testing this weekend to double check where the leak is coming from but I was pretty sure it was the housing attached to the ski and not the removable screw top. Initially I coated the thread in a gel to stop the water getting in but it still leaked even with a tight seal. I’ll tape the screw top up this weekend to make sure before taking it further.

Rightarmbad – I hear what you’re saying. If it just needs a re-gluing then I’d probably do it myself to make sure the jobs done right but I’d contact the dealer first to hear what he has to say.

As for the screw part, why don’t they have a o-ring to seal these compartments, it’s not like it’s going to change the price by more than 0.5c.


Mart
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by candela.

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13 years 7 months ago #5441 by mckengmsurfski
Mart,
I'd be interested to know what you find in regards to where you decide it's leaking from and how your repair goes, so please keep us posted. I agree with mr rightarmbad too, I'd contact your dealer before trying any repairs myself regardless. I'm not sure why there's not some sort of gasket or something between the lid and the attached cover, might make a difference. That said the dry hatch on my other ski, a Honcho, doesn't have that and it seems to stay, well, dry.

Mark

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13 years 7 months ago #5442 by Rightarmbad

This is the second time on this site i've been told to stop reading my warranties and just lawyer up. Its all very American of you guys....

Mark...USA.


Nobody wants to be a prick.
Everybody I know just wants to get whatever fixed and in the nicest co-operative way possible.

Everybody likes to maintain a good relationship with where they purchased the boat.
I mean you gotta buy another one one day, why not from the same place that you got the last one.

But.

If it come down to a manufacturer or seller trying to fob of their responsibilities, then they have made the first move.
They are the ones encouraging the hard line.
If they want to push people around, then they have to realise that some are gonna push back.

All anybody asks of the manufacturer/seller is to do the right thing.
In this case, I myself would be quite happy if I was told that, this is how you lift the cover, use this adhesive, you can do it yourself if you want to save some downtime.

No problems.

But if a manufacturer puts barriers to try and bluff their way out of their responsibility, then the only recourse is to 'do the lawyer on them'.
After all, it's what they are trying illegally to do to you.......

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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13 years 7 months ago #5443 by mckengmsurfski
Wow...
I was just joking dude, but judging from your response it wasn't very funny... Oh well, even Andy Kaufmann was misunderstood. Still, guess I'll stick to my other night job.

Mark

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #5444 by nell
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this, but the complaint is a leaking screw cover over the rudder on a V12? I've never had a Fenn, Epic, CK, Think ski that didn't leak there and I would go so far as to believe that the manufacturers don't even presume water-tightness of the rudder cover. That's why they make that compartment so tiny - it only holds what? a cup of water?

Take a look at the Fenns, Custom Kayaks, etc. They've got a rudder cover that's held on by two short sheet metal screws over a bead of silicone which is hardly watertight. Many paddlers simply ditch the covers with their new ski because they serve no purpose other than to cover the potentially sharp metal parts from cutting you in a surf wipe-out. Plus, with the cover on, you are less likely to notice problems developing there like frayed or rusting lines that need replacing soon.

As long as the water isn't getting into the hull, then it's not a problem. Salt and water in the rudder lines doesn't do anything - particularly when the rudder lines are spectra cord. Water gets into all the rudder housing of all skis everywhere. My Fenn XT is 10 yrs old and hasn't had a rudder cover on it since I ditched it 10 yrs ago. A cup of water sloshes onto the depression where the rudder yoke is and then it sloshes out. Not a problem. Epic and Think went one step more modern than Fenn did by putting a screw cap over the rudder which is neither here nor there as a design improvement, but I can see how it might give an owner the impression that it's supposed to be a watertight compartment. But I don't think it is.

Also, Huki went a step further as did many OC1 manufacturers by simply doing away with any sort of rudder cover or rudder area depression. Erik
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by nell.

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #5445 by Rightarmbad

Salt and water in the rudder lines doesn't do anything - particularly when the rudder lines are spectra cord.


Good to know. Thanks for posting and correcting what may be a mistaken, non proven preconception on my part.

But water in the housing may simply be first signs that the housing is not glued on properly and may fall off as has been known to happen.
Should still be looked at in my opinion.

The rudder compartment can never totally seal, the rudder is a loose fit in bushing it runs in.
If the cap does seal then water cannot get in, if there is any leakage on the top side, then water can also go up the rudder shaft.

I've never had water sitting in my rudder housing (V10) but there is certainly moisture.
It may just be that by the time I get around to opening it every now and again to wash it out, that the water has already left via the rudder shaft.

Next time on the water, I will open it up and see just out of curiosity.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by Rightarmbad.

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13 years 7 months ago #5447 by Dicko
I'm with Nell on this one.......they all leak. You may not have noticed but there is a large hole in the middle. When the air in the rudder well cools after you put the ski in the water it shrinks and it sucks water into the rudder well (assuming it's airtight). If you fall out the air escapes out the same said hole and when you turn it over it sucks water in.
Some ski's simply don't have covers at all. So corrosion isn't a deal. Apart from the weight saving, having no cover makes it easier to inspect (a mates rudder fell off cos the nut became loose) and wash.
Most screw caps do come with an o-ring. A new cap costs about $10AUS....about the same in the US. Personally I wouldn't worry about it.
I think epic are right not worry about this, they're not responsible for the laws of physics.

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13 years 7 months ago #5448 by Pete
To be honest with all most of your threads I think your all being a bit precious.

I know there is many ski builders that read this as I have probaly 10 ski`s over my years on the water and even with rubber sealed hatch covers ( spec ski`s ) I have always had some water in the rudder area which I always took to be coming up in between rudder under some for of pressure.

Its a water sport, and this liquid is a strange being that I would expect is prone to go where it can.

Lighten up and paddle - I have mates who paddle 20kg ski`s and water in the rudder hatch is the least of there worries :woohoo:

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #5459 by ejpoulsen
Am I missing something here? My ski always has a bit of water under the rudder hatch. It's normal. It comes right up the rudder shaft. Huki probably has the right idea--just eliminate the compartment so the water--which will come up the shaft--doesn't hang around. The only way sealing the hatch does anything is that it holds the air in better, making it harder for water to come in and displace the air. Move on guys.
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by ejpoulsen.

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  • Chaz
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13 years 7 months ago #5461 by Chaz
Replied by Chaz on topic Re:V12, and another leaking cover story.
I agree. I just thought that was normal to get alitte water there. I have a V10 sport and V12 performance and V12 Elite, all get some water under the cap. Even on days I'm not in rough water. None inside the boat just under the cap. Chaz

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13 years 7 months ago #5463 by aracer
Can't say I've noticed getting water in there whilst paddling - not really checked. I can tell you one thing though - when I left it upside down with no rudder in I certainly got water in there!

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13 years 7 months ago #5466 by Rightarmbad
This thread is a fine example of a excellent troll.
Very subtle, sucked in heaps, just enough possible truth to make people wonder.

T=10

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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13 years 7 months ago #5474 by candela
Wow, didn’t think the question would create such a stir……. It’s was a serious question from someone with minimal experience in the sport or with ski designs.

According to most of the replies it seems quite normal so I’m happy to accept that and move on. Question answered.

Pete - As for being a bit precious, well the more I learn from asking question or reading other peoples questions the less precious I’m likely to be due to increasing my knowledge about the skis and the sport I love doing.

Rightarmbad – In regards to AU warrantee, my seam has already started to crack so I hopefully EPIC au will sort this issue out without too much drama, unless it normal.

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13 years 7 months ago #5475 by AR_convert
Good on ya for asking the question, I too am learning so much from others seemingly niaive questions and I would hazard a guess that there are many more like us learning from posts such as this ;)

Always looking for the next boat :)

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13 years 7 months ago #5476 by Rightarmbad
It was my fault really, as I started to write my original reply, I hit backspace several times an then thought I would have some fun.
A quick link into the controversies on other threads and it was away.

What it did do is highlight the dangers of listening to internet armchair experts.
I think the first recourse for what you believe to be a warranty problem, should always be to contact the place where you bought it or direct to the manufacturer if that is not feasible.

I hope that it doesn't put off others from asking similar questions though, as it can be hard for beginner forum users to get comfortable enough to post, let alone ask questions.

Now to the seam cracking bit, if that is an attempt at a troll, then good work as I for one don't know whether or not to believe you.

If it is real, I'm sure that all here are listening with baited breathe to see how you go........

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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