Rear of seat cracking V12P

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9 years 11 months ago - 9 years 11 months ago #12829 by candela
I'm not sure if it's my bad leg drive technique, but today I noticed a soft spot surrounded by cracks about 40mm diameter plus another small crack off to the side. The main soft spot is exactly where my hip pushes on the back of the seat as I drive with my left foot.

It's a 2yr old V12 performance layup padded about 4 days a week.

I can understand if you pushed your thumb into the boat in the same spot 20x a minute for 60min 5 days a week it would eventually create a problem.

So I'm wondering if it's due to my bad leg drive technique? Do others press of the back or the seat during the final stage of leg drive?

Mart.

Sorry not sure what happened thought I posted in the epic category but ended up in announcements. :whistle:
Last edit: 9 years 11 months ago by candela. Reason: Posted in wrong section........

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9 years 11 months ago #12832 by Rightarmbad
From a forces point of view, the moment you apply pressure to the rear of the bucket you are simply wasting energy.

After all it can contribute nothing to forward motion.
The only thing it achieves is tension in muscles needlessly.

Push with 100grams of force forward and backward as well, simply adds up to a net zero force applied to the forward direction.

The predominate leg force should be earlier in the stroke anyways, immediately after the catch and during the peak force stage.


My V10 performance bucket is cracking at the very rear of the bucket in the depressed area that is smoothed away to alloy you to lean back.
But the whole boat is falling to pieces now, I take tape with me and tape up any new cracks that will take in water before every paddle.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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  • JeandeFlorette
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9 years 11 months ago #12833 by JeandeFlorette
Replied by JeandeFlorette on topic Re: Rear of seat cracking V12P
I don't know what it is with "soft spots" but each time I hear of a story where these words are mentioned I simply cringe, my blood pressure goes up and I feel like riding my bike instead of surfing the ocean...

I had similar experience with a Think Uno followed by 2 Vajda Orca Racing layup. Numerous heated phone calls, visit to the ski doctor or local representative either resulted in a patched up or replaced craft with an unhappy customer who feels left out in the cold... imagine being left out swimming in the deep blue with a leaking float?!!

Why are surf ski manufacturers releasing sub standard and disposable skis on the market, leaving in their trail many unhappy paddlers who just want to paddle instead of taking a road trip to the boat repairer? Why are they not testing their product properly? Why do theiy not crash test them like cars?

I would like to do a survey of how many paddlers have experienced soft spots and how old was the ski when they first experienced it. We should send a clear message to the manufacturers that we have had enough of being flogged with disposable items after forking out our hard earned cash. If we wanted to do that, we would have gone to the $2 shop...

I'm seriously considering making the switch to spec skis for this very reason... at least I can paddle through the surf zone without having a heart failure...

:S

CEO - The softspot class action

JDF

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9 years 11 months ago #12865 by candela
RAB: I think you're right about the leg drive. I've now taped the cracks up until I get it repaired.

The paddles I've done since finding the damage I've altered my leg drive not allowing my hips to push on the rear of the seat. Its going to take awhile but I can now see the mistakes I was making previously. It feels better, but a little less stable in the ocean chop.

I've attached a pic.

Mart
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9 years 11 months ago #12869 by Rightarmbad
Heavy landing going over the back going out?

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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9 years 11 months ago #12879 by candela
No heavy landing.

I'm sure it's from my bad leg drive technique. At the end of the leg extension my bony hip was pressing into the back of the seat at that exact spot.

At an average stroke rate of 40p/m for 60-90min 4-5 days per week I guess it just go too fatigued and cracked. I've since changed my leg drive for the better.

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9 years 11 months ago #12888 by AR_convert
Sounds to me like you are making excuses for a poorly built ski :huh: Simply sitting and swiveling in a ski shouldn't cause this :blink:

I agree that going over the back of a big wave headed out through shore break can get you airborne and bring you down into the bucket with a thud but baring that this is a design floor.

The bucket and the area about 1 foot either side should be the strongest part of the ski, to take our weight, knocks from paddles and remounts and of course placing on roof cradles and stress from tie down straps.

The only places I have ever seen soft spots and have shrugged my shoulders at them because I probably caused them are either in the nose or tail sections of the ski.

Wouldn't it be great if our skis had serial numbers with the year of manufacture on them, that would certainly reward ski manufacturers who built skis that last.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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  • JeandeFlorette
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9 years 11 months ago #12889 by JeandeFlorette
Replied by JeandeFlorette on topic Re: Rear of seat cracking V12P
Paddlers have been very lenient and patient with manufacturers for poorly built skis. The only people who are entitled not to complain about soft spots are boat repairers.

It would be interesting to start collecting some statistics on the number of repairs, type of repairs by ski manufacturer and model/construction, year of manufacture, country of manufacturer, I am sure that some surprises will be uncovered...

People do that for cars!

JDF

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9 years 11 months ago #12891 by Rightarmbad
I agree, a bucket should be strong enough to carry your weight.
I can't imagine applying enough force to the bucket to de-laminate it.
My performance layup boat has been through the ringer, but the bucket is perfect and I bet I am heavier than you by a lot.

The only proper damage my ski suffered has been impact damage.

It did develop small cracks on one side at the front of the footwell in the tight radius corner, this never went anywhere and the other side is fine, I suspect that there was a weakness in the layup at this point.

The cracks it is developing now are where it has been repaired, apart from the strange one developing at the rear of my bucket mentioned.
There is also a soft spot forming on either side of the deck in the small corner either side where the seat and the deck meet.

This may be from me putting my weight on those spots when re-entering.
Still, I'd like to think that I should be able to do so without risking damage to my boat.

Honestly, I think that the layups used are plenty strong for the purpose.

But,

I do believe that there is insufficient quality control in construction and problems regularly show up.
This can be attested to by all the boats that you see that are old and have been trashed, but sport no such soft spotting problems.

Yes, I know it depends a lot on exactly how bumps and bruises happen, but sometimes there is simply no apparent reason for a soft spot to form.

The manufacturers always have the get out of jail free card of saying there was impact damage, but the owners know exactly what has occurred and whether they are getting stiffed or not.

We don't need a registrar, we already have the paddlers around us that see first hand the problems as they develop, this is all the recognition required to sink a manufacturer.

And it will happen.
There are so many new players now that culling WILL happen to any makers that don't back up their product.

Those that provide great backup will win out in the end.
It's as simple as that.
It may not happen overnight, but it will happen, smart businesses will make sure that it is not them by paying attention to giving 'better than expected' care of their existing customers.

Nothing infuriates a customer more than being told that you hit it or something when you know very well that you haven't.

The moment the seller utters those words, he's put the customer off side and the chances of them or their mates ever coming back is quickly going down the tubes.

We all know in our own groups who has been shown great service and who hasn't.
The sellers that showed crap backup may win a small battle by not having to fork out for the one particular problem, but they will lose the war in the long run for sure.


I am currently in the bicycling industry.
A guy rocked in the door with a cracked carbon frame that was 2 years out of warranty.
He was way too heavy for the stated capacity of the frame, he knew it.

But he liked the frame and wanted to know if we could recommend a repairer or find him a replacement.

We inquired about this with the Australian wholesaler.
What did they do?

They shipped out a new frame within a week, a newer model that they said is a bit beefier anyways.
They then paid us shop rates to transfer all the components over to the new frame.

Customer was over the moon and we have a great sales tool when asked about backup.

All the work we had to do was take a photo and email it with details.

As a retailer, WE now have HUGE confidence in the product, and that transfers through to better sales.

There was no legal requirement on the supplier to do anything for this guy, but they come through with spades without even being asked for.
He was off the road for a half a day.

Now that is what customer service is all about.

Stand behind your product or die, and good riddens to those companies that don't.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
The following user(s) said Thank You: RightImBad

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9 years 11 months ago #12893 by kayakchampeen
Here's what I don't get re. ski construction. Carbon is not any lighter than glass, just stronger in tensile/compressive strength and stiffer than glass. This is why manufacturers utilize it in order to try and build sub 10kg ultralight boats. (in effect using much less material overall) If you were to make make a 12 or 13kg ski with addtional carbon/kevlar instead of trying to skimp on material, you could have a ski of "reasonable" weight that would potentially be much stronger and have way more longevity than "ultra" disposable layups and still perform better than vac/glass. If a customer was allowed the option of a 30lb ski with more of the expensive material one could own a ski for ten years. Right now you either get a heavy glass boat or an ultralight carbon boat with no real option to just spec more carbon in the layup and end up with a medium weight, bombproof ski. I would gladly sacrifice 5lbs of weight in the interest of having an offshore capable, solid, safe, ski that is still stiff and fairly high performance. It's all fine and dandy for Mocke or Oscar to race in a featherweight POS skis because they have chase boats during the race and also don't have to buy their own $4000 skis. Right now the middle of the road Epic for instance, is the worst of both worlds, not enough material to be strong (tough), not light enough to really matter. Look at Patasi and Brasca paddles popular with the sprint crowd. They are not ultralight at all but with the forces applied to these paddles no-one would want an ultralight epic or Onno they would have to worry about breaking. Of course, what would the manufacturers do for repeat sales if their skis lasted forever, they wouldn't have a captive market of poor saps whose ski's have fallen apart and need replacing every other year.(cynical but true)

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9 years 11 months ago #12896 by Dicko
Isn't carbon sheet significantly more expensive. So I guess having 3 layers of carbon (or whatever) will make a 13kg boat cost $6000 or so. The trade off is over 10 years you would probably save money cos I would own 7 boats over that time, the down side is you end up owning a ten year old boat. So while everyone is paddling their Fenn elites you would still be in your millenium. It's all about cost in the end.

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9 years 11 months ago - 9 years 11 months ago #12897 by FalllGuy
Just curious, what's wrong with Onno paddles? I happen to have had great luck with them. I have owned, or still own, 5 different Onno blades and paddled in excess of 5000km with them over the past few years. I currently alternate use of a Sprint Wing, A Mid-Wing Plus, and a Mid-Wing.

I never experienced a single failure or quality issue with Onno. They have taken abuse that includes digging the blades into the sand when launching and landing and often using them to push off of muscle beds and oyster bars.

I do only use the solid carbon blades, which to me seem pretty much indestructible.

I have never used the cored carbon and could see them possibly being a little fragile, but from my personal experience, the solid carbon blades are first rate and durable.

In regards to the topic of the thread: poor boat quality and we as paddlers coming together to do something about it...

I am sure most here are familiar with Hobie kayaks which are the most popular rotomold fishing kayaks here in the Northeast U.S..

A few years ago, there was a strong uprising within the kayak fishing community, because a weak point/design flaw within the area where the Hobie's pedals and fins mount, causes the boat to crack and flood with water.

At first, Hobie tried to talk their way around the issue, but eventually the pressure became too great and they had to address it.

If it hadn't been for the barrage of negative posts and sentiments that were openly expressed in a forum just like this one, nothing would have been done about the issue. But the negative comments became so overwhelming, Hobie was backed into a corner and had to address the situation.

Hobie never recalled the poorly designed, defective boats. They never even publicly admitted to there being a problem. What they basically did do, is replace the boat of anyone that went to a dealer and reported the issue. Some people had to have their boats replaced as much as two or three times. Just about every hull sold in this area within the kayak fishing community, for the prior two years, failed and had to be replaced.

Here in NY, a kayaker had to be rescued by helicopter from a small island at the mouth of NY Harbor, because his replacement boats hull cracked, causing the boat to flood and nearly sink.

I personally had to guide a 63 year old Hobie user to shore because his hull cracked in choppy conditions and was in the process of sinking.

The point I am trying to make is that no matter how bad a problem is, no boat manufacturer is openly going to admit there is a problem unless pressured to do so, or take responsibility for the problem, unless people come together in places such as this and force them to do so...

If a product does not perform properly and safely in the conditions that it was designed to perform in, there is a flaw in the design of the product and that company is liable to the consumer; even if the product warranty has run out.

The only way an issue would be addressed is if people in places such as this, make them be addressed...

I can understand how an impact can cause damage...

But an arse just sitting in the cockpit and rotating? That's totally unacceptable and I have to say that if it was my boat, either the company would be forking over a new boat, or I would be using every means possible to make sure the same situation never happened to anyone else. And with social media today being what it is, such a thing is very easy to do...

But in all fairness, the company does have to be given every chance to make it right first...
Last edit: 9 years 11 months ago by FalllGuy.

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9 years 11 months ago #12903 by arminius
I agree with your cycling analogy. When I had a problem with my Orbea Gold frame (not a defect but a part I had lost) Orbea went out of their way to replace it at no cost to me - I didn't even have to pay the Fedex from Australia.

When the carbon rudder on my V12 failed because of poor design I was the one who had to pay Epic for another one AND pay for the repair to the ski.

I know what brand my next bike will be whereas my sufski will probably not be an Epic.

Another perfect day in paradise. A bit of sun, a bit of rain and it's not even lunch time.

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9 years 11 months ago #12909 by Physio

kayakchampeen wrote: If you were to make make a 12 or 13kg ski with addtional carbon/kevlar instead of trying to skimp on material, you could have a ski of "reasonable" weight that would potentially be much stronger and have way more longevity than "ultra" disposable layups and still perform better than vac/glass. If a customer was allowed the option of a 30lb ski with more of the expensive material one could own a ski for ten years.




exactly what I bought.JKK magnitar ski
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9 years 11 months ago #12910 by AR_convert

kayakchampeen wrote: If you were to make make a 12 or 13kg ski with addtional carbon/kevlar instead of trying to skimp on material, you could have a ski of "reasonable" weight that would potentially be much stronger and have way more longevity


Hence me choosing the Carbonology Vault and Flash in the Hybrid lay-up, glass re-enforced with Carbon.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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9 years 11 months ago #12913 by latman
light ,strong or cheap , choose any two ....

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9 years 11 months ago #12914 by Watto

I am currently in the bicycling industry.
A guy rocked in the door with a cracked carbon frame that was 2 years out of warranty.


Hey how cool is that backup. Manufacturer?? Cmon RAB.

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9 years 11 months ago - 9 years 11 months ago #12918 by Rightarmbad
Manufacturer is Avanti, the wholesaler also carries the Scott road bike I have. (actually, they gave it to me at 20% off wholesale to get me on one)
Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

The cycling world is so much bigger than ours.
There are so many boards like these and word soon gets around.

There is also a lot of competition in the market place.
Death would be quick to those stupid enough to not back up their product.

One Day Surfski will be his big and death will be just as swift.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson
Last edit: 9 years 11 months ago by Rightarmbad. Reason: Forgot day, funny how our minds work isn't it.

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9 years 11 months ago #12919 by kayakchampeen
Hey fall guy, I wasn't trying to somehow disparage ONNO paddles at all. In fact, I hold Patrick in high regard as a craftsman of the highest order. I realize he makes paddles to the customers' specs and won't let a less than perfect product out the door. I only name dropped Onno by way of example of a paddle that is widely regarded to be featherlight and popular with the distance/AR crowd. I realize that paddle weight makes a difference over long distances; if I were marathon racing i would want the lightest paddle I could afford. It seems to me though that in the conditions of a typical downwinder (read lots of wind) that superlight paddles get blown all over the place and I much prefer a little swingweight just to feel the blades and maintain form. Also, there are occasions in the surf where a margin of additional strength seems like a good idea. I haven't however, heard of an Onno paddle breaking and they are a fine piece of kit. I didn't realize that he offered full carbon construction, which is likely stronger. I wouldn't doubt if there is more aerospace grade carbon in a Patasi Turbo paddle than in your average Epic ski. These and older Brasca's are brutally strong compared to any foam core blade, including Jantex, and tougher to boot. Latman's adage about weight, strength, and price does hold true, and a boat with %30 more expensive material would not be cheap, but it could be made so strong that breakage would not even be a remote concern, provided the laminate is expertly done with attention to detail..which is a different question altogether. Physio, I like the new JKK ski. I auditioned a JKK supernova on one occasion and was impressed with the quality. Looks from your avatar that you and Watto both have some downriver experience under your belt. Good to know. Lots of wildwater racers cross over to ski with some success, It's just a very niche sport unless you are in alpine Europe

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9 years 11 months ago #12920 by FalllGuy
Champeen, I misunderstood the context and thanks for the explanation.

I now understand the context of the point...

I took what was said in the context of paddles having a rep for failing because of the context of the original post.

I'm not always the brightest light on the tree Champ. It takes me some time to "get it" with some things. The again, it could also have to do with the Vicodine breakfast I had...(laughing)

Thanks for the patience and taking the time to clarify...

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